Eternal Security

[john316yes]

Hi Steve, Thanks for responding. What about these verses? They seem to imply that when a sinner is saved, he is guaranteed salvation, and those who walk away were not saved, or they are in rebellion against their Father. In my opinion, God will keep him in his hand, "Nobody can snatch them away from my hand" John


in him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. Ephesians


They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. 1 john

[Homer]

But there is a difference in "eternal security" and perseverance. Eternal security says you are saved, as it were, by a transaction - at a point in time you placed your faith in Christ and are saved forevermore regardless of whether faith is maintained. As previously noted, the Calvinist insists that if conversion is real you will never fall from faith, it will stick. And others, as Steve mentioned, believe we are saved by relationship rather than transaction. The latter two agree that perseverance is necessary while the former does not.

[steve]

"Nobody can snatch them away from my hand" John 10:28

Nor will they. None of our enemies is stronger than God. He can thoroughly keep those who follow Him—which is the definition of one who is His "sheep" (v.27). However, things change when someone ceases to be a follower of Christ—when the sheep strays or becomes a wolf. Before we suggest that it is impossible for a sheep to become a wolf, we should recall that many a former wolf (e.g., Saul of Tarsus) has become a sheep. There is no guarantee that the transformation can not go both ways. The promise clearly applies to sheep. Nothing is said in this passage about former sheep.

in him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. Ephesians 1:13

The "seal" or "signet" of God's ownership is His Spirit in His people. Possession of the Holy Spirit is the very proof of Christ's ownership of His church (1 John 3:24; 4:13). Those who are the true children of God bear this seal (cf.Rev.7:3; 9:4). Those who are unbelievers do not have this seal. Likewise, those who are no longer believers. Those who no longer believe are, clearly, unbelievers.

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. 1 john 2:19

John (like Jesus, in Matt.7:22-23) is describing certain people who were pretenders—either wittingly or unwittingly—at being Christians. The ones John has in mind have departed from the apostolic fellowship, in order to pursue and teach false doctrines. He calls them "antichrists" (v.18) because they deny "that Jesus is the Christ" (v.22). These ones did not persevere, certainly, because they were never genuine.

Our present discussion, however, is not about whether there are false believers in the church, some of whom eventually depart. We all recognize this phenomenon. Our discussion has to do with the true believers (not mentioned in this passage) and whether they, too, may eventually depart.

There are very many verses that describe the danger of true Christians falling away (e.g. Matt.24:13, 45-51; Luke 8:13; John 15:6; Rom.11:22; 1 Cor.9:27; Gal.5:4; Col.1:22-23; 2 Tim.2:12; Heb.3:12; James 5:19-20; 1 Pet.1:5; 2 Pet.2:20-22; Rev.3:5; etc.). You might want to look these up.

However, a controversy over this matter is not really settled by a battle of the proof-texts. Each side thinks it has the "stumper" text that beats all on the other side. The matter comes down to what salvation is. It is a relationship between two genuinely free parties, which, like all relationships, requires a nurturing of love and trust on the part of both parties. Because the parties are free, their continuation in the relationship will depend upon their character and their determination to keep faith with the other party. God will never break faith. Unfortunately, people sometimes do.

[john316yes]

"(Steve) The matter comes down to what salvation is."

Yeah, that is true Steve each side thinks that he is right and proof of texts in the Bible is a battle. I would say though, these two camps are able to live together in peace cuz I attend a church that does not necessarily believe in Five point Calvinism, yet they don't deny the text when it speaks about those issues. I know a lot of those Verses you have mentioned.

Christian Calvinist believe Christians are sealed until the day of redemption, how can you believe that God will disregard something that he has marked with a seal as a deposit until he comes and picks it up?

If we are in God's hand how can God's purchased people step outside of his hand?

If we are his sheep cant the Great shepherded find his wandering sheep?

If nothing can separate us from God's love how then can somebody he loves be separated from Him?

If there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ how can they be condemned?

Can Christians really become unbelievers? How can a Christian become unborn again if he is born again?

Name one saint in the Old and New Testament who turned away?

Do you sin? When you sin why do you come back? How are you able to live a ilfe style of repentance without the Holy Spirit?

[steve]

John316yes,

Thanks for posting what I regard to be honest questions. They are worthy of an honest response:

If we are in God's hand how can God's purchased people step outside of his hand?

Your question is worded, "how can..?" Do you mean this rhetorically, as if to say that "One cannot"? Or do you mean it curiously, as in "What would one have to do in order to be in this category?"

If the first, all I can say is that the falling away of believers is treated everywhere in scripture as a genuine danger, so there is little question that it can be done.

If the latter, then I would say this happens when one turns against Christ, choosing to no longer be His disciple. It is like breaking up a marriage. It only happens when one partner chooses to give up on his/her vows and to seek an alternative life (e.g., Jer.2:13; Gal.5:4).

If we are his sheep cant the Great shepherded find his wandering sheep?

Thankfully, He tries, and often does. But not always, unfortunately (Ezek.34:8). In any case, the decision to be a sheep or not lies with the individual. The qualifications are stated by Christ: "My sheep hear my voice...and they follow me" (John 10:27). To "follow Christ" is a condition stated to anyone who desires to come after [Jesus] (Matt.16:24). Unfortunately, there are those of His flock who, when He calls, do not heed or follow (Isa.53:6 and 65:12).

If nothing can separate us from God's love how then can somebody he loves be separated from Him?

Read the list of things that Paul lists which cannot separate us from the love of God (Rom.8:35-39). All have one thing in common: they are factors external to ourselves. As we continue to trust Christ, He preserves us from every thing in the environment that might seek to come between God and us—tribulation, war, famine, poverty, governments, demons, etc. On the other hand, Paul does not address the entirely possible (but utterly unthinkable) contingency of our separating ourselves from Him (Heb.3:12).

If there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ how can they be condemned?

Q. How can one have "no condemnation"?
A. By being "in Christ" (Rom.8:1)

Q. How can one remain in "no condemnation"?
A. By abiding in "Christ" (Rom.8:1).

Q. How can one who is in Christ come under condemnation?
A. By not abiding "in Christ" (John 15:6).

Can Christians really become unbelievers? How can a Christian become unborn again if he is born again?

If Christians cannot become unbelievers, there would be no need to warn "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling" (Heb.3:1) against the danger of succumbing to "an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God" (v.12). The Holy Spirit (according to Paul) expressly predicted that "some will fall from the faith" (1 Tim.4:1). I will let the Holy Spirit, who made the prediction, sort out the theological difficulties that His prediction raises (if He is a Calvinist, that is. Otherwise, there is no problem).

As for the second part of this question. There is not such thing as being "unborn." However, one who has been "born" can certainly "die" at his own hand.

Name one saint in the Old and New Testament who turned away?

Demas (2 Tim.4:10; cf. Col.4:14; Philm.24). There are more, but you only asked for one.

Do you sin?

Yes, sometimes.

When you sin why do you come back?

To "come back" suggests that I have previously "departed." I won't cop to that. I have never departed from Christ, though I have often behaved unworthy of Him. If you simply mean "Why do you repent?" then it is because I want to, and because God graciously allows it.

How are you able to live a ilfe style of repentance without the Holy Spirit?

I don't understand the question, or the reason for asking it. Did you get the impression that I am living without the Holy Spirit? You may think this about me, but I would disagree.

[john316yes]

The Fallen.

Galations 5 "You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Paul is confident in the believers that they will stand and even calls them Brothers and sisters. They are being thrown into confusion by either, a non believer who is not saved and is a spy with other motives. Paul is confident that they will change their minds.

"Brothers and sisters" " I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 1"

The believers were falling into a trap and needed correction by Paul the Apostle, but it didn't mean they would fall away because they cant, it is impossible as Jesus said, "For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect." Mathew 24:24 And again"I shall give them eternal life and they shall never perish."

"you were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you"


Thanks for answering my many questions Steve. So I guess from what you have said, my understanding it is your conviction that people who have been saved from the wrath of God, have been marked with a seal, have been born of God," were washed, were sanctified, were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God (1 Corinthians 6:13) and "And those he predestined, he called; he justified; those he glorified." (Romans 8:30) can fall away?

After all of that how can a man be deceived?

Has God taken away all of your sin? Do you really believe that Jesus bore your sin on the Cross in his own body?
We break our marriage covenant with God every time we sin? It is is God who is faithful and it is God brings us back. Nothing can separate us from God even ourselves with our diluted ideas. Im not sure you can support that in scripture.

[steve]

After all of that how can a man be deceived?

Well, you believe I am, and I believe you are. One of us must be...so it is a possibility.

Has God taken away all of your sin? Do you really believe that Jesus bore your sin on the Cross in his own body?

The scripture affirms this.

We break our marriage covenant with God every time we sin?

Really? I do not agree. I do not break covenant with my wife every time I let her down.

It is is God who is faithful and it is God brings us back. Nothing can separate us from God even ourselves with our diluted ideas. Im not sure you can support that in scripture.

Interesting that you should end your statement that way. I was just about to say the same to you.

[john316yes]

Well Steve, I don't necessarily believe that you are deceived. I'm trying to understand you. lol. It is is good that Jesus bore your sin on the cross, all of it, and that you do believe that God raised His Son from the grave. I'm pretty sure we are on the same page. I just can't believe, neither do I think you should believe, nor teach that I or you or somebody else could lose your Justification, Your Inheritance, The Holy Spirit, Your Forgiveness, Your Call from God, Your Sanctification, Your Peace with God , Christs righteousness, God's love, Your Eternal Life, Your Election by the Father, Your Sanctification by the Spirit, and the Love and work of Christ. If Jesus really bore your sin in himself and represented you before God and is your advocate, why in tar nation would their be a possibility for you to be cast into the Lake of Fire?

There is no possibility because God keeps us from stumbling and keeps us from the evil one.

[steve]

neither do I think you should believe, nor teach that I or you or somebody else could lose your Justification, Your Inheritance, The Holy Spirit, Your Forgiveness, Your Call from God, Your Sanctification, Your Peace with God , Christs righteousness, God's love, Your Eternal Life, Your Election by the Father, Your Sanctification by the Spirit, and the Love and work of Christ.

Since many people have lost these things, as the Bible predicted that many would, why do you think it should not be taught? Is there some harm in warning people about this danger? If so, were Jesus and the writers of scripture wrong to warn about them? (I am thinking you did not read the list of scriptures I gave you previously).

You seem rather naive in your optimism. My impression is that you are fairly young. After you have been a Christian long enough to see people fall away from the faith, you may be more open to what the scriptures warn about this, and less wedded to hypothetical theology.

[john316yes]

Steve I answered Galation 5 for you.

Ok you named Demas. As somebody who fell away from the faith, "for Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, and Titus to Dalmatia." But although it is said that he deserted him, there have been so many Christians have done the same including me and you when we chose to sin over following Christ. One Christian that comes to mind is John Mark, "but Paul did not think it wise to take him, because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not continued with them in the work.They had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company. Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus," Acts 15:39 Yes he loved this world, but so do you and I at times, that does not mean we will fall away and desert God completely. God lives in us and He loves us, we are his Children. Demas could have been scared because of the persecution.

Are you saying that God does not love me with unconditional love? You dont think that God would save from my wandering?
Isn't he a shepherd? That's his Job- to keep us safe. Otherwise he would not be a good shepeherd.