HELL

[john316yes]

So there you go Steve, as soon as you doubt this doctrine, false teaching creeps in your ministry and doubts enter into the mind of your hearers. You should listen to these people who are writing on this post. The man from Idaho seems to say that it is possible to have joy apart from eternal life. All because, your not choosing to say anything on this subject, but only to give other positions. And the position that your saying that is close to what you believe or agree with, distorts the word eternal and causes people to doubt or to be confused about there Eternal inheritance.

[steve]

Hi john316yes,

I have read all the posts on this thread. Which of them contains the false doctrine to which you allude?

You have difficulty in believing that a Christian's joy is independent of his belief in eternal life? Why? Many people who are not Christians find joy in meaningful relationships with people they love. Are you saying you can not find such joy in a meaningful relationship with God? David would disagree with you. He said that in God's presence is fulness of joy (Ps.16:11), and he therefore longed to be continually in the tabernacle, where he could enjoy the presence and the beauty of the Lord (Ps.27:4; 23:6). Yet, I am not sure whether David had a clear hope of what we call eternal life. In any case, if he did, he didn't get it from the scriptures available to him.

The biblical people were able to "rejoice" (or "joy") "in God" or "in the Lord"—not heaven (Isa.61:10; Hab.3:18;Luke 1:47; Rom.5:11; Phil.3:3, etc.). Joy is a fruit of the Spirit (Gal.5:22; Rom.14:17). How is this a false doctrine?

If we had nothing in our scriptures about eternal life (speaking hypothetically here), would you not find fulness of joy in your relationship with God? If not, what is there about going to heaven that attracts you? I want to go there because I love God and enjoy my relationship with Him now, and look forward to an even greater opportunity to know Him better there. I don't know you, so I could be mistaken, but it sounds like you have never discovered the joy of a relationship with God, and your main interest in heaven is that it isn't hell. Feel free to correct me.

P.S. You use John 3:16 as your screen name. Are you aware that John 3:16 supports an alternative view of hell more than it supports you own?

[Paidion]

The bigger question is how does one choose the right definition of eternal when you read the scriptures?

It's not a matter of the right definition of "eternal." That word means either (1) everlasting (2) without beginning or ending (3) outside of time (whatever that means)
What we want is a definition of the Greek word "aionios". The word means "lasting" in every context.

There is a Greek word for "everlasting" or "eternal". It is "aidios". It is found in the following verse:

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Deity so that they are without excuse. (Romans 1:20 )

[john316yes]

Hey Steve, I don't think it is fair for other people to hear your comments when you don't have a conviction about what position you agree with. I just have to say, if you don't know what Eternal means, then maybe you shouldn't talk about this topic. Teachers should be wise as serpents, innocent as doves, and have integrity. Otherwise, you just leave your hearers including myself confused about what kind of life Jesus has promised us, is forever or is it temporal? That's bad. You cant pick and chose what greek definition you want to use when you feel like it, for example, in Eternal life or Eternal punishment, both of those adjectives have two different meanings when used in Mathew 25? How do you which one to choose? I would say through context and through other scriptures.

To answer your question, eternal life is the joy that we rejoice in it is this gift that we proclaim. Further, my joy is based on the fact that the Lord Jesus saved me from God's wrath; that is, eternal punishment in the eternal fire separated from God forever. I'm joyful that he has promised to give me an inheritance; that is, the Kingdom prepared for me before the foundations of the World. Also, my Joy is in the fact that I will never die, but have received ETERNAL LIFE and have been promised that Jesus will raise my body from the ground to receive indestructible body when he comes back. I'm Joyful that I will not be ashamed when Jesus comes to judge the world but will be found blameless. I don't fear that God is going to kill me and throw me into Hell for my sin. I love Jesus, that is my relationship. People do a lot for love.

[Paidion]

The Lord Jesus saved me from God's wrath

The Lord Jesus saved you from God's wrath? Then the Lord Jesus must really be at loggerheads with God the Father! God is so angry with you that He wants to punish you forever, but the Lord Jesus won't let Him. This kind of thinking seems to negateJesus' words when He affirmed that He and the Father are ONE. Their ONENESS would strongly suggest that they are on the same wave length, and that either you are the object of the wrath of BOTH Jesus and the Father, or else you are the object of their glorious Love and Salvation.

[Homer]

If we had nothing in our scriptures about eternal life (speaking hypothetically here), would you not find fulness of joy in your relationship with God? If not, what is there about going to heaven that attracts you? I want to go there because I love God and enjoy my relationship with Him now, and look forward to an even greater opportunity to know Him better there. I don't know you, so I could be mistaken, but it sounds like you have never discovered the joy of a relationship with God, and your main interest in heaven is that it isn't hell. Feel free to correct me.

To answer your question, eternal life is the joy that we rejoice in it is this gift that we proclaim. Further, my joy is based on the fact that the Lord Jesus saved me from God's wrath; that is, eternal punishment in the eternal fire separated from God forever. I'm joyful that he has promised to give me an inheritance; that is, the Kingdom prepared for me before the foundations of the World. Also, my Joy is in the fact that I will never die, but have received ETERNAL LIFE and have been promised that Jesus will raise my body from the ground to receive indestructible body when he comes back. I'm Joyful that I will not be ashamed when Jesus comes to judge the world but will be found blameless. I don't fear that God is going to kill me and throw me into Hell for my sin. I love Jesus, that is my relationship. People do a lot for love.

John316yes,

First of all you need to recognize that you are dealing with folks of superior piety and motivation to yours. Then you need to learn that the vast majority of lexicons are wrong on the meaning of the Greek aionios. You see, it is mistakenly thought to function as an adjective, but in the bible the nouns it would seem to modify actually determine the meaning of aionios. Well, actually the person reading the text is free to decide what it means:

When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.

[john316yes]

I guess the Lord Jesus wanted me to be here because I can see that there is some confusion about the gospel on this forum including doctrine and theology. Some people are denying and refusing to believe in eternal places, and things, including Steve. The result is error in other places in your doctrine. Steve also denies the inherent depravity of man; that is, that man does not have the necessary ability and will to choose God for salvation, that is, man is a slave to sin, has been given over to destruction, he is blind by the devil, spiritually discerned, and by nature, and apart from God's intervention, has no interest in God . Steve also denies that God elects and chooses to save people according to mans good will and merit, apart from God's grace. The result is a weak gospel and view of God, but I would say that although there are debates with in the church about this subject, there is room for grace among God's people to live with each other in love, but it gets shady when a Christian denies the word eternal. Now that's shady, Annihilationism? Really? Eternal life is not our Joy? Really? Now that's a little shady. This is what Steve seems to teach.

"and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

[paulespino]

Hi John,

This is my question for you,

Will your salvation be affected if you have not decided which doctrine to choose with regards to Hell ?

If a person had spent all of his life studying the Bible including all the doctrines available today and yet that person is still undecided with regards to End times prophecy is Christ going to tell him that he is ungrateful because he had not chosen to support a specific doctrine with regards to End times prophecy?

Your wrote:
Hey Steve, I don't think it is fair for other people to hear your comments when you don't have a conviction about what position you agree with. I just have to say, if you don't know what Eternal means, then maybe you shouldn't talk about this topic.

People who post here are from different denominations just like you. One of the intent of this forum is to conduct a discussion in a civilize manner.

You may discuss your beliefs and prove your beliefs using your intellect and evidences from the Bible but it is unnecessary to force your beliefs .

It is not unfair if Steve is undecided with respect to the Doctrine of Hell because again the purpose of this forum is to discuss diff. topics and Steve has given you the reason as to why he chose not to choose which is a form of a civilize discussion.

As a Christian if you truly think that you are right and Steve is wrong then show your love to Steve by praying for him that one day he may decide to choose the correct Hell doctrine. Meanwhile as Christians let us continue to discuss diff. topics here.

[Singalphile]

Good link to that shorter summation, backwoodsman. It's not easy, though.

Paidion wrote:
There is a Greek word for "everlasting" or "eternal". It is "aidios".

Note: I find it interesting that Jude 1:6 uses aidios (aidios chains/bonds) rather than aionios. I wouldn't have thought that.

Paidion (also) wrote:
What we want is a definition of the Greek word "aionios". The word means "lasting" in every context.

There appears to be a form of menó in the NT that is sometimes translated as "lasting" (Heb 10:34 and Heb 13:14). "Lasting" shows up a number of times in the OT (lasting shame, plagues, peace, etc.) too, but I can't find what Greek word was used in those instances in the Septuagint. Any thoughts on why a NT writer would use aionios rather than meno (or perhaps some other word) if both can simply mean lasting/continuing/abiding/remaining/enduring? In any case, I rather think that aionios is more complex and has no equivalent English word, as can be gathered from just that dissertation that was linked to earlier.

[steve]

John316yes,

Homer is on your side. He thinks it hyper-pious to say that one can love God for Himself alone. In the opening chapters of Job, Satan also expressed this skepticism. He thought man serves God only for rewards. I believe that Job proved Satan wrong.

I have had this discussion with Homer over the years, and have been surprised at his view on this, given his otherwise orthodox views. However, you are a stranger to me, so I am not yet familiar with your sentiments (though they appear to be emerging in this discussion). I am curious about your answer to just one question:

If there were to be no heaven or hell, would you still love God and serve The Lord Jesus Christ?

I would appreciate a direct response to this question, because this is the specific crux of our disagreement. Do you agree with Homer that loving God for who He is, regardless of what He gives, is hyper-piety?