Whats the difference in the way eternal is used when it is attached to fire or life such as when it used with eternal life or eternal fire?
When I read that I can obtain eternal life by believing in God's One and Only Son, I believed it was without end; like God. However, when I hear that this adjective does not mean eternal when it is added to fire and punishment, it makes me think that eternal life really does not mean forever.
Steve How do you reconcile this?
(Mathew 25)
HELL
Re: HELL
Well, what if "aionios life" did not mean forever? That isn't necessarily my position, but it seems to be your concern. Consider three possible meanings of the Greek word aionios:
1) What if, for instance, in the case of Matthew 25, aionios means "of the [future] age"? There is that possibility. Thus, it would essentially have the meaning of "eschatological." If so, then verse 41 would speak of "eschatological fire," while verse 46 would speak of "eschatological life" and "eschatological punishment." In such a case, the duration of the fire, the life or the punishment would not be under discussion. Rather, the fact that these things pertain to the eschaton, or the final age, would be what they share in common. I can see no problem with this suggestion. It would agree with what many of the leading New Testament scholars (of which I am not one) have argued.
This would allow for any one of the three views of hell to be correct. Even the universalist could see the "eschatological punishment" as having the function of purging and bringing about repentance. In fact, the universalists say that the word "punishment" in this passage (Gr. kolasis) does not necessarily mean generic punishment, but specifically "corrective punishment."
Of course, the duration of "eschatological life," while not indicated by the adjective, might still turn out to be endless, but this would have to be determined by other passages that use language other than aionios. Passages that promise that believers will "never die" would seem to fit that bill.
2) Alternatively, suppose we do take aionios in the sense of indicating duration. Its basic meaning, in such cases, seems to be "lasting" (not necessarily everlasting, though it could apply to such everlasting things as well). In that case, Matthew 25 speaks of "lasting fire," "lasting punishment" and lasting life." This likewise would not tell us just how "lasting" each of these things described might be. We might talk about a man's "lasting legacy," as well as a "lasting friendship," and a "lasting impression" that was made. The word means the same in each case, but the duration of one of the "lasting" things might differ widely from the duration of another.
A fire that lasts a hundred years, a punishment that lasted ten years, and a life that lasted endlessly, would each rightly be described as "lasting." To assume that the duration of all "lasting" things is equal is to presume without warrant.
3) But let's take a third case. Let's suppose that aionios actually means "lasting forever" in every occurrence in Matthew 25. What would be the result then? The fire lasts forever, in verse 41. It might also be the case that everything sent into that fire also lasts forever and consciously suffers in it, but we could not justly deduce such a conclusion from merely being told that the fire burns forever. Likewise, the life lasts forever. No problem there. The punishment, then, would also last forever. This remains ambiguous. Does this mean that the process of punishing lasts forever (that is, it is perpetually ongoing), or does it mean it brings a permanent, everlasting result (e.g., annihilation)? In either case, the punishment would be forever.
So, while there are several options with reference to the preferred translation of aionios, there is no particular problem to annihilationism in its use in Matthew 25.
I should clarify, that I am not an annihilationist—nor a traditionalist, nor a universalist. I am undecided. However, the call today wished for me to clarify how I could remain undecided (that is, how I could not be a convinced traditionalist) in light of Matthew 25. This is my answer to that question.
1) What if, for instance, in the case of Matthew 25, aionios means "of the [future] age"? There is that possibility. Thus, it would essentially have the meaning of "eschatological." If so, then verse 41 would speak of "eschatological fire," while verse 46 would speak of "eschatological life" and "eschatological punishment." In such a case, the duration of the fire, the life or the punishment would not be under discussion. Rather, the fact that these things pertain to the eschaton, or the final age, would be what they share in common. I can see no problem with this suggestion. It would agree with what many of the leading New Testament scholars (of which I am not one) have argued.
This would allow for any one of the three views of hell to be correct. Even the universalist could see the "eschatological punishment" as having the function of purging and bringing about repentance. In fact, the universalists say that the word "punishment" in this passage (Gr. kolasis) does not necessarily mean generic punishment, but specifically "corrective punishment."
Of course, the duration of "eschatological life," while not indicated by the adjective, might still turn out to be endless, but this would have to be determined by other passages that use language other than aionios. Passages that promise that believers will "never die" would seem to fit that bill.
2) Alternatively, suppose we do take aionios in the sense of indicating duration. Its basic meaning, in such cases, seems to be "lasting" (not necessarily everlasting, though it could apply to such everlasting things as well). In that case, Matthew 25 speaks of "lasting fire," "lasting punishment" and lasting life." This likewise would not tell us just how "lasting" each of these things described might be. We might talk about a man's "lasting legacy," as well as a "lasting friendship," and a "lasting impression" that was made. The word means the same in each case, but the duration of one of the "lasting" things might differ widely from the duration of another.
A fire that lasts a hundred years, a punishment that lasted ten years, and a life that lasted endlessly, would each rightly be described as "lasting." To assume that the duration of all "lasting" things is equal is to presume without warrant.
3) But let's take a third case. Let's suppose that aionios actually means "lasting forever" in every occurrence in Matthew 25. What would be the result then? The fire lasts forever, in verse 41. It might also be the case that everything sent into that fire also lasts forever and consciously suffers in it, but we could not justly deduce such a conclusion from merely being told that the fire burns forever. Likewise, the life lasts forever. No problem there. The punishment, then, would also last forever. This remains ambiguous. Does this mean that the process of punishing lasts forever (that is, it is perpetually ongoing), or does it mean it brings a permanent, everlasting result (e.g., annihilation)? In either case, the punishment would be forever.
So, while there are several options with reference to the preferred translation of aionios, there is no particular problem to annihilationism in its use in Matthew 25.
I should clarify, that I am not an annihilationist—nor a traditionalist, nor a universalist. I am undecided. However, the call today wished for me to clarify how I could remain undecided (that is, how I could not be a convinced traditionalist) in light of Matthew 25. This is my answer to that question.
-
john316yes
- Posts: 86
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:38 pm
Re: HELL
Well, then I guess the next question is it correct to say that Jesus Christ created an eternal place of punishment for eternal beings (the devil and the angels)? That is, the Lake of fire as said in Mathew 25, "Depart from me you cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." I just do understand how you can explain that the Lake of fire is not eternal? When Jesus tells us that Hell is a place where the flames are not quenched and the worm does not die. I'm not sure how these adjectives verbs can explain to us that Hell is temporary. Also, the picture of the rich man in Hell seems too represent a place of eternal punishment. When you read one can see that when a person dies, although they lose their freedom on earth, they don't cease to exist, but their soul is preserved in Hell to be punished forever in flames, " ask Lazarus to dip his finger in some water for I am in agony in these flames." The rich man was still alive, that is, without his body. I think if you cant believe the Lake of Fire as Eternal then you can't believe that the Eternal life that Jesus has given us is eternal. Then Where is our hope?
When is eternal cease to be eternal?
"I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."
When is eternal cease to be eternal?
"I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."
Re: HELL
While not trying to sell books, I can say that every scripture that comes to your mind on the subject is duly noted and exegetically explored in my book, which will be available in October.
You needn't wait till then for answers, though, because most of those scriptures have already been discussed to death on various threads of this forum.
I believe it is a mistake to make one's interpretation of ambiguous texts about final judgment a centerpiece in presenting the gospel to unbelievers. Neither Jesus nor the apostles ever did so, as far as the biblical record would indicate.
Also, the question of whether our life in Christ is eternal or not is not tied in the manner you think it is to our opinions about hell. It should make us happy (as it would clearly make God happy) if no one were ever to face an eternity of torment. Whether they will or not is a question independent of the saints' eternal destiny.
My position is not that the traditional view is necessarily false—only that the preponderance of scriptural testimony seems to favor other alternatives. The matter remains an open question for me. If it is not an open question in your mind, I will not seek to disabuse you of your convictions. I do think, though, that having an open mind is what humility would call for. All the proofs that you find persuasive are familiar to me, and I am as interested as you are in knowing what the Bible actually teaches on the subject. If someone like myself, who has just spent the past several years researching the subject, and immersing himself in all the available scriptural arguments in print for every viewpoint, reports that there is reason to remain undecided, you may do with that fact whatever seems fitting to you. Ignoring it is one available option.
You needn't wait till then for answers, though, because most of those scriptures have already been discussed to death on various threads of this forum.
I believe it is a mistake to make one's interpretation of ambiguous texts about final judgment a centerpiece in presenting the gospel to unbelievers. Neither Jesus nor the apostles ever did so, as far as the biblical record would indicate.
Also, the question of whether our life in Christ is eternal or not is not tied in the manner you think it is to our opinions about hell. It should make us happy (as it would clearly make God happy) if no one were ever to face an eternity of torment. Whether they will or not is a question independent of the saints' eternal destiny.
My position is not that the traditional view is necessarily false—only that the preponderance of scriptural testimony seems to favor other alternatives. The matter remains an open question for me. If it is not an open question in your mind, I will not seek to disabuse you of your convictions. I do think, though, that having an open mind is what humility would call for. All the proofs that you find persuasive are familiar to me, and I am as interested as you are in knowing what the Bible actually teaches on the subject. If someone like myself, who has just spent the past several years researching the subject, and immersing himself in all the available scriptural arguments in print for every viewpoint, reports that there is reason to remain undecided, you may do with that fact whatever seems fitting to you. Ignoring it is one available option.
Re: HELL
Steve How do you reconcile this?
I'm another Steve but my understanding of "aion" is that it is a flexible word not a strictly defined definition of eternity , but an undefined amount of time related to the context in which it is used. Sometimes used to mean a few days or a human lifetime and sometimes to mean eternity.
So for the "saved" i think they can feel at ease that it means eternity but in other situations it means an undefined length of time that God may not have revealed to us.
"Aionios" means something or a quality pertaining to the "aion" as i understand it.
I'm another Steve but my understanding of "aion" is that it is a flexible word not a strictly defined definition of eternity , but an undefined amount of time related to the context in which it is used. Sometimes used to mean a few days or a human lifetime and sometimes to mean eternity.
So for the "saved" i think they can feel at ease that it means eternity but in other situations it means an undefined length of time that God may not have revealed to us.
"Aionios" means something or a quality pertaining to the "aion" as i understand it.
-
Singalphile
- Posts: 903
- Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:46 pm
Re: HELL
Hello John316yes and everybody,
I'll sell Steve's book! Here: http://www.amazon.com/All-Want-Know-Abo ... gregg+hell I bet it'll be an exceptionally good resource.
Someone here posted links to somebody's doctoral dissertation on aion (here), which directly relates to the meaning of aionios.
I'm content to go along with what most Greek scholars think it means. As Steve explained briefly up there, it doesn't seem to me to make much difference when it comes to my view of aionios/eternal punishment. (I'm pretty much in the conditional immorality, aka annihilationist or eternal destruction camp.)
How about this: Is it your view that everyone will in fact live (i.e., be consciously aware) forever? If not, then I suppose you have particular definitions of "life" and "death" that go beyond the normal English definitions (e.g., death = "separation from God"). There is some merit to that, I think, but there is even more reason to understand that the Greek "aionios" isn't exactly equivalent to the English "eternal" (or "everlasting"), which scholars do agree on, I think. It can and, imo, probably usually does imply "lasting forever" but there's more to it. I have come to think of it as also meaning "being God-sourced or of a supernatural or spiritual quality/realm".
As for hope, I would also look at Rev 21:1-4, which I take to be a description of our future life in a future new heaven/earth (though some disagree), where there will no longer be any tears, mourning, pain, or death.
Just because I have it, here are some interesting uses of aionios in the NT:
I'll sell Steve's book! Here: http://www.amazon.com/All-Want-Know-Abo ... gregg+hell I bet it'll be an exceptionally good resource.
Someone here posted links to somebody's doctoral dissertation on aion (here), which directly relates to the meaning of aionios.
I'm content to go along with what most Greek scholars think it means. As Steve explained briefly up there, it doesn't seem to me to make much difference when it comes to my view of aionios/eternal punishment. (I'm pretty much in the conditional immorality, aka annihilationist or eternal destruction camp.)
How about this: Is it your view that everyone will in fact live (i.e., be consciously aware) forever? If not, then I suppose you have particular definitions of "life" and "death" that go beyond the normal English definitions (e.g., death = "separation from God"). There is some merit to that, I think, but there is even more reason to understand that the Greek "aionios" isn't exactly equivalent to the English "eternal" (or "everlasting"), which scholars do agree on, I think. It can and, imo, probably usually does imply "lasting forever" but there's more to it. I have come to think of it as also meaning "being God-sourced or of a supernatural or spiritual quality/realm".
As for hope, I would also look at Rev 21:1-4, which I take to be a description of our future life in a future new heaven/earth (though some disagree), where there will no longer be any tears, mourning, pain, or death.
Just because I have it, here are some interesting uses of aionios in the NT:
Welcome, john316yes. I hope you'll stay around. The forum gets quiet sometimes."These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46 NASB
"Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;" Matthew 25:41 NASB
"but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin — " Mark 3:29 NASB
"but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, ...." Romans 16:26a NASB
"These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," 2 Thess 1:9 NASB *
"And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation," Hebrews 5:9 NASB
"of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment." Hebrews 6:2 NASB
"and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption." Hebrews 9:12 NASB
"just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them ... are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire." Jude 1:7 NASB
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23
-
backwoodsman
- Posts: 536
- Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:32 am
- Location: Not quite at the ends of the earth, but you can see it from here.
Re: HELL
A bit later in the same thread is a link to a much shorter and easier-to-digest summation of the doctoral dissertation that the author did as a magazine article:
http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=53316#p53316
Re: HELL
Steve is "MEANING eternity" or "MEANING an undefined length of time" tantamount to meaning "lasting"?Steve 7150 wrote:So for the "saved" i think they can feel at ease that it means eternity but in other situations it means an undefined length of time that God may not have revealed to us.
I have written many times that the adjective "aionions" may APPLY to that which is eternal, or it may APPLY to that which lasts for 1000 years or more, or 3 years, or 3 days, and I gave examples of each from Greek literature. That doesn't mean that the word sometimes MEANS "eternal", or sometimes MEANS "lasting for 1000 years or more" or sometimes MEANS "lasting for 3 years" or sometimes MEANS "lasting for 3 days." There is no time frame whatever in the MEANING of the word. I think the word simply means "lasting", and thus can APPLY to anything which lasts, either to mountains (the "aionios hills") which probably last many thousands of years, or the a brick wall which may last hundreds of years, or to a man's prison sentence which may last 3 years, or to Jonah's experience in the fish's belly which lasted only 3 days, or to God (the "aionios God") who lasts forever. In each case someone or something is LASTING.
Consider an analogous case—the adjective "tall". Just as "lasting" is related to time, the adjective "tall" is related to height. Just as there is nothing inherent in the meaning of "tall" that indicates how tall, there is nothing inherent in the adjective "lasting" which indicates how long. A man might be said to be "tall" if he were six feet in height. A building might be said to be "tall" if it were two hundred feet high. But "tall" doesn't MEAN 6 ft. or 200 ft. Similarly, though "lasting" can apply to Jonah's experience of only 3 days, or to a prison sentence of 3 years, it doesn't MEAN "lasting 3 days" or "lasting 3 years." Nor does it mean "lasting forever" though it might APPLY to things which last forever.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
-
john316yes
- Posts: 86
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:38 pm
Re: HELL
STEVE : The bigger question is how does one choose the right definition of eternal when you read the scriptures? You might say, as Steve says, I know the GREEK! "aiónios", so what does that do for the person who wants to know the equivalent word for eternal in the original language? It forces them to choose the best definition for the verse. So here it is: the short definition:"eternal, unending" the Long definition:age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting. SO WHICH ONE IS IT? HOW DO WE CHOSE? DO WE PICK ACCORDING TO OUR FEELINGS? NO!
A s you can see Steve, the details now shed some light on the word, nevertheless, if were going to play it safe, we must use context, and other verses in the Bible to shed some light on our dilemma. Your uncertain, and you don't know, but by your omission, you are choosing. It seems to me that you don't like eternal punishment, that is, as most Christians believe it to be, Eternal, but if we are going to use your way of thinking, then everywhere the Bible says Eternal we will have to ask ourselves what does that really mean? Then again, how can I know that the Eternal life that I have is really Eternal (without end) how can I know that God himself is Eternal ( without end)? Is it "practically eternal or is it unending"Then I would say to myself, why be a Christian if I know my life is only going to be prolonged for a time? Why believe in God? if He is temporal?
Eternal: "practically eternal or unending" ..." WHOEVER HEARS MY WORDS AND BELIEVE IN GOD WHO SENT ME HAS " PRACTICALLY ETERNAL LIFE?" TO THE KING "PRACTICALLY ETERNAL GOD" ? "THEN THEY WILL GO TO PRACTICALLY ETERNAL JUDGMENT" Now this confusing. This leaves me with confusion and doubts about salvation and God ...
A s you can see Steve, the details now shed some light on the word, nevertheless, if were going to play it safe, we must use context, and other verses in the Bible to shed some light on our dilemma. Your uncertain, and you don't know, but by your omission, you are choosing. It seems to me that you don't like eternal punishment, that is, as most Christians believe it to be, Eternal, but if we are going to use your way of thinking, then everywhere the Bible says Eternal we will have to ask ourselves what does that really mean? Then again, how can I know that the Eternal life that I have is really Eternal (without end) how can I know that God himself is Eternal ( without end)? Is it "practically eternal or is it unending"Then I would say to myself, why be a Christian if I know my life is only going to be prolonged for a time? Why believe in God? if He is temporal?
Eternal: "practically eternal or unending" ..." WHOEVER HEARS MY WORDS AND BELIEVE IN GOD WHO SENT ME HAS " PRACTICALLY ETERNAL LIFE?" TO THE KING "PRACTICALLY ETERNAL GOD" ? "THEN THEY WILL GO TO PRACTICALLY ETERNAL JUDGMENT" Now this confusing. This leaves me with confusion and doubts about salvation and God ...
-
backwoodsman
- Posts: 536
- Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:32 am
- Location: Not quite at the ends of the earth, but you can see it from here.
Re: HELL
Did you read the article I linked in my post above? If not, please do so. It's a definitive treatment of the meaning of the word 'aionios', and it'll answer your questions. On the other hand, if you've read it and disagree, it would be helpful if you'd explain _why_ you disagree.john316yes wrote:The bigger question is how does one choose the right definition of eternal when you read the scriptures? You might say, as Steve says, I know the GREEK! "aiónios", so what does that do for the person who wants to know the equivalent word for eternal in the original language?
The meaning of 'aionios' has nothing to do with eternal life, either the believer's or God's. The scriptural case for eternal life is ironclad even if one ignores every verse where 'aionios' is used. In fact, if we were depending on 'aionios' to establish eternal life, then it would be a very shaky doctrine indeed, since it's clear the word does not mean 'eternal'.Then again, how can I know that the Eternal life that I have is really Eternal (without end) how can I know that God himself is Eternal ( without end)?
Are you a Christian only because it gets you eternal life? Don't you see anything about a relationship with God that you'd find attractive and worthwhile even without the promise of eternal life?Is it "practically eternal or is it unending"Then I would say to myself, why be a Christian if I know my life is only going to be prolonged for a time? {...} Now this confusing. This leaves me with confusion and doubts about salvation and God ...