Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children

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Ian
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Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children

Post by Ian » Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:43 am

Exodus 34
5 Now the Lord descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord. 6 And the Lord passed before him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, 7 keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and the fourth generation.”
Caller Randy asked Steve whether God punishing children for the sins of their fathers was consistent with the portrayal of Him in the NT. Part of his answer was that, paraphrased, there are negative consequences for the sins of the predecessors on the antecessors. The analogy was drawn with the drug addict pregnant mother who causes her child to be born a drug addict. While this is of course true, this is not how verse 7 above is phrased. God is the protaganist in the sentence. It is He who says He will do the "visiting".

I know, Steve, that you have to think on your feet in these radio programmes. You do it impressively well. But how would you have replied if Randy had not gone away satisfied with the pregnant drug addict mother analogy?

Thanks

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mattrose
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Re: Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children

Post by mattrose » Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:07 am

I would say that, since God is God, He is ultimately behind everything that happens... at least in the sense that he allows all things that happen. Because of this, the Bible sometimes words things in such a way as to make it sound like God is directly responsible for things in which He is really only indirectly responsible. In other words, God (the Inspirer of Scripture) is willing to take responsibility.

The Bible itself proves that this is sometimes the case, as evidenced by numerous parallel statements. Think of the book of Job. We (as readers) know that Satan was directly responsible for Job's sufferings, yet neither the conversing characters, nor God Himself, ever refers to Satan's role. We might have expected that God, when He starts speaking toward the end of the verse, would have started by saying.. "hey Job, you and your friends have taken turns essentially blaming me for what has happened... well guess what, it wasn't really me, it was Satan... just thought you should know." No, God simply acts as if He is in charge... because He is. There are numerous other examples of this I believe.

So in the passage you are referring to, I think it is quite possible (Even likely) that God is not the one directly 'visiting' the subsequent generations with punishment. Directly it was most likely the natural consequences of the sin, as Steve referred to. But God set up a world with consequences, so it is not inappropriate to write it as if God is the one responsible. If God pulls back and let's sin create negative situations, that is God indirectly doing something.

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steve
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Re: Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children

Post by steve » Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:45 am

I agree, of course, with Matt (I find that I almost always do).

I think modern people become confused about the term "visiting the iniquity" (Ex.20:5; 34:7; Num.14:18; Deut.5:9). The Old Testament uses the word "visit" in a way that we don't use it in our culture. Whenever God does something, whether to punish or to rescue, it is an instance of what the Hebrew writer might call God "visiting." The Hebrew word can mean "to visit, inspect, review...to care for; look after (Ex. 3:16ff.)...to chastise (Jer. 9:259:25; 44:13), punish (Jer. 9:9); to attack (Job 31:14; 35:15; Is. 26:14)..." (S. Zodhiates).

I think the passages before us are seeing the consequences of Israel's idolatry (especially) as coming upon multiple generations of the offenders. I have long thought it is a threat that was fulfilled in the Babylonian exile. Since the punishment of sin is God's responsibility (whether this involves a stepping in proactively on His part, or merely His allowing the effects of sin to run their course), God is willing to own the punishment as coming from Him.

On the radio, I do sometimes have to "think on my seat," but this was not one of those times. I wrestled with this specific issue, and these passages, for years. I had reached my present conclusions long ago. I gave an example of "trickle-down" consequences of a mother's sin upon her unborn child, which is a simple example that everyone can understand. However, while this illustrates the principle on an individual level, in the scriptural cases under our consideration, God is referring to national—not individual—judgment. It is the same principle on the larger scale.

National judgments involve temporal (not eternal) consequences brought upon a whole society. Nations rise and fall under God's favorable or unfavorable providences. Individuals, even within a doomed nation, may "deliver only themselves" (Ezek.14:14) from God's ultimate, eternal judgments—though perhaps not always from His temporal, societal ones.

The judgment of a nation impacts many innocent people in that nation—e.g., Pharaoh's Egypt, David's Israel (2 Sam.24), Nazi Germany, Obama's America—and may have ramifications stretching into many future generations (e.g., the USA, coming soon?). In terms of individual salvation, God does not punish children for their fathers' sins (Ezek.18). However, our bad behavior and choices may bring down undesirable consequences on our offspring for multiple generations (e.g., Manasseh—2 Kings 24:3).

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Re: Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children

Post by Ian » Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:38 pm

Thank you both of you for your detailed, thoughtful replies.

Steve wrote:
Since the punishment of sin is God's responsibility (whether this involves either stepping in proactively on His part, or merely His allowing the effects of sin to run their course), God is willing to own the punishment as coming from Him.
Sidetracking now: when I`m sat next to my camera and dolly here in the Alps waiting for a time lapse to finish, I often listen to my two favourite Bible teachers, Steve Gregg and Greg Boyd (can`t imagine what the marmots think, but right now they`re all in Winterschlaf anyway, so they can`t hear). You two differ from each other, it seems, on the cause, direct or indirect, of much that is disastrous in the natural world. Greg Boyd would be unable to bring himself, for example, to think that God could possibly have been behind the Haiti earthquake (I wonder if his world view has been shaped by his suffering over his autistic son). The idea of a pre-Adamic fall by bad angels crops up very regularly in his sermons. His theodicy hinges on this, it seems. He insists repeatedly that "God is good, all good". You Steve are more non-commital when it comes to "natural evil". In a post about the Haiti quake, you did not distance yourself from Pat Robertson`s bold stance that the quake might have had something to do with Haiti`s selling out to the devil to get rid of the French. Boyd would have done so.
Which is why you could write:
The judgment of a nation impacts many innocent people in that nation
Including young children who died a frightening, lonely death after the first floor of their house had collapsed on them. Hmm... Maybe. But it seems a rather severe position to take when actual, specific cases of innocent suffering present themselves.

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Re: Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children

Post by Paidion » Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:03 pm

It seems that "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children" no longer applies under the New Covenant. As Jeremiah prophesied:

"Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and the seed of beast. Aand it shall come to pass, that as I have watched over them to pluck up, to break down, to throw down, to destroy, and to afflict, so I will watch over them to build and to plant, says the LORD. In those days they shall say no more: ‘the fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’ but every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge. Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘know the LORD,’ for they all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." (Jeremiah 31:27-34 NKJV)
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Re: Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children

Post by steve7150 » Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:10 pm

Re: Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children

New postby Paidion on Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:03 pm
It seems that "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children" no longer applies under the New Covenant. As Jeremiah prophesied:

"Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and the seed of beast. Aand it shall come to pass, that as I have watched over them to pluck up, to break down, to throw down, to destroy, and to afflict, so I will watch over them to build and to plant, says the LORD. In those days they shall say no more: ‘the fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’ but every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge. Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the





Good observation because certainly the ripple effect of sin still remains with us. Perhaps this is a process of the New Covenant not being fully at work until the end of this age?

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Re: Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children

Post by Singalphile » Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:12 pm

Steve already mentioned Ezekiel 18, in which God says to Israel that that He judges each according to his own conduct. I wonder if there's any special meaning or symbolism in the mention of the "third and fourth" generations.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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Re: Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children

Post by steve » Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:59 pm

Greg Boyd would be unable to bring himself, for example, to think that God could possibly have been behind the Haiti earthquake (I wonder if his world view has been shaped by his suffering over his autistic son).
Greg Boyd is definitely a smart man. Every smart person allows his theology to be shaped, somewhat, by his experience. That is one thing that keeps our theology connected to reality. For example, my having children of my own worked on my own understanding of God's character as a father. As a result, I have seen certain verses about God's dealings with His sinful children differently (more accuratey, I think) than I had previously. Those whose minds are always full of scripture cannot help but to re-examine relevant scriptures in light of new experiences.

However, we can't allow our experience to dislodge us from those realities which are knowable only by divine revelation, such as we have in the scriptures. I have suffered numerous tragedies. Though having an autistic child has not been one of my experiences, some of mine would probably rank right up there with that. These experiences have been filtered through my commitment to scripture so that I have been able to make sense of them.

One scriptural truth that has become more real to me through my experiences is the transitory nature of life, and the immensity of eternity. It is through this lens that I see human sufferings, including my own. Paul said that the sufferings of this present life "are not worthy to be compared" with what lies beyond (Rom.8:18). Few men can document a greater number of afflictions than those endured by Paul (for a partial list, collected in the early stages of his ministry, see 2 Cor.11:23-33). Yet, Paul regarded these agonies as "light affliction" when contrasted with the "eternal weight of glory" that he anticipated (2 Cor.4:17).

Paul had this view, not because he didn't know how bad suffering can be, but because he had an accurate eternal perspective on these matters. When seeking to impugn God's character, atheists always point to some horrible case of an innocent child, undeservedly suffering some unspeakable agony. These horrible realities exist. However, Paul (who experienced such things on a daily basis) did not regard them unbearable, as he saw them through the lens of God's eternity.

We might say, "but not every suffering person has that knowledge of eternal comfort and reward to make their sufferings bearable." We might as easily argue that Paul's God was not equally accessible to all who will call upon Him, and not as willing to give enabling grace to any sufferer who might turn to Him for mercy. We are in no position to assess exactly how much grace God may in fact be giving to any given sufferer, which he or she could in no way communicate to us.

Some, in previous discussions here, expressed deliberate disregard the many passages in scripture in which God specifically says He is the one sending a judgment (e.g., Noah's flood, or the destruction of Jerusalem) which killed and terrified millions of people, including children and relatively innocent adults. One party and I have had long debates about these things. It becomes frustrating when you can quote any number of verses in scripture that plainly declare a thing to be true, but the Christian arguing against you simply says (in effect), "I don't accept those verses as inspired by God, because they rub me the wrong way."

(To be more accurate, that person's statements are that he does not accept any scripture that seems to him to be unlike Jesus. However, one has to ask, from whence do we learn anything about what Jesus was like, and is there any way to determine, from those sources, whether Jesus agreed or disagreed with the controversial verses in question? If Jesus had no problem with the Old Testament scriptures—or with His own declarations of God bringing judgment on Jerusalem, for that matter—then it seems disingenuous to call Jesus as a witness against them.)

This is, indeed, allowing one's experiences and sentiments to shape theology in an unhealthy way. It is like saying, "I will use scripture to support notions that I like, but will reject the scriptures that teach what I don't like." If we are going to form our theology in this manner, why not simply leave the Bible out of the equation altogether, and just go with our hunches? The scriptures only complicate matters when we give them any say at all, but not complete authority.

I'll go with Paul's solution. His nagging affliction, which he called a "thorn in the flesh," was both from Satan and from God—from Satan, because it was his messenger; from God, because Jesus specifically chose not to remove it in response to Paul's repeated prayers, and said, "Instead, I'll give you grace" (2 Cor.12:7-10). Paul never doubted, thereafter, that his affliction was in the will of God, and that He was using it for His glory and Paul's ultimate good. I doubt that this made the suffering any less painful—but I also seriously doubt that Paul remembers it today.

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Re: Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children

Post by Homer » Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:43 pm

I'm not quite understanding Paidion's position. It seems to be that he believes the subject matter only related those to whom the old Covenant was given (Israel) and do not pertain to those under the New Covenant (whoever they may be). To all of the rest of mankind the "visiting iniquity" is irrelevant?
This is, indeed, allowing one's experiences and sentiments to shape theology in an unhealthy way. It is like saying, "I will use scripture to support notions that I like, but will reject the scriptures that teach what I don't like." If we are going to form our theology in this manner, why not simply leave the Bible out of the equation altogether, and just go with our hunches? The scriptures only complicate matters when we give them any say at all, but not complete authority.
How often I thought the same thing during the universalism discussions! (And let me assure you I am not fond of the idea of hell.)

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Re: Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children

Post by steve » Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:32 am

But Homer, there is not one person here who has ever said anything like, "I don't care what the scripture says about hell, I'm going with my hunches here." Where are you finding a parallel?

Every person who has challenged the traditional doctrine of hell at this forum has done so on the basis of scripture—far more appeal to scripture, in fact, than anyone has credibly brought up in support of the traditional doctrine. Too often the traditional doctrine has been defended, not by exegesis, but by arguments like the following:

—The Pharisees of Jesus' day believed in eternal torment in gehenna [not exactly an accurate statement, and irrelevant even if true], therefore Jesus—despite His warning His disciples against the leaven (or doctrine) of the scribes and Pharisees—wished for the disciples to accept the Pharisaic doctrine even though it had no support from the Old Testament or from Jesus;

—If hell is not according to the traditional doctrine, then justice is not done to men like Hugh Hefner (apparently an example of a man living an enviable life, if no hell were to exist?);

—God alone is not sufficiently attractive to motivate anyone, without additional threats of eternal torment, to be drawn to Him;

Such arguments have been combined with repeated (though frequently corrected) misrepresentation of the positions alternative to the traditional doctrine.

By contrast, advocates of conditional immortality can and do present hundreds of scriptures describing the fate of the lost in terms such as "death," "perishing," "destroyed," "consumed," etc., while advocates of universal reconciliation present many pertinent references to God's love and kindness toward those who hate Him, and the fact that He will not keep His anger forever, and that Jesus reconciled the world to God, and that God's ultimate sovereign purpose is stated in scripture to be the reconciliation of all things to Himself.

All the while, not a single verse of scripture unambiguously affirming that sinners will be tormented eternally can be presented.

I guess this makes me wonder why my comment above reminded you of the discussions here about hell.

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