What is "Prayer"?

[darinhouston]

Philippians 4:6-7 (New King James Version)

So, a caller asked Steve about prayer (specifically, do we pray to Jesus), and Steve mentioned that he didn't think prayer was a general term but was distinguished as just petitioning and different from other forms of conversation which we might have with Jesus such as thanksgiving, for example. "Disagree" is too strong a word, because I'm not sure exactly where I might land here, but I'm not sure I bought Steve's argument here.

The main point he made, as I recall, was with reference to Phil 4. He suggested that thanksgiving was something "different" from prayer, but as I read it, prayer is the basic subject, and then supplication ("petitioning") was specifically mentioned as the type of prayer being discussed but also to not forget to be thankful when you're making your requests.

So, the way I read it, prayer is the general term for conversing with God and though it can contain the normal range of conversational elements, in the context of not being anxious and making requests to God, the verse was merely telling us that we can take our requests to Him but to remember to do it with a thankful and not demanding heart. I don't see it as being definitional or in any way exhaustive about what "prayer" might be.

Maybe there is other teaching that supports a more narrow understanding of "prayer," but I wouldn't take it that narrowly merely on this passage.

Steve? others?

[TK]

good topic, darin.

doesn't the verb "pray" mean "to ask?'

somewhere in John, Jesus says "I pray the Father..." i always thought that sounded weird-- like it is missing the word "to" between "pray" and "the." but if pray means "ask" then it makes perfect since.

remember the old english word "prithee?" i am pretty sure this is just a shortened form of "pray thee"- as in "I prithee to help me rescue the damsel in distress."

TK

[Theophilus]

The Greek word for prayer in Phil 4:6 is proseuche <4335> whereas the Greek word for ask in James 4:2 is aiteo <154>.

This link says the English word for prayer has Latin roots.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?sea ... hmode=none

And Wikipedia mentions, "From classical times, it was used in both religious and secular senses. Prex is recorded as far back as T. Maccius Plautus (254 B.C. – ?)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer

It's interesting that because of the attributes of God, you can't give him any new information because of His omniscience, nor can you tell him what to do because of His omnipotence.

[TK]

Theophilus wrote:

It's interesting that because of the attributes of God, you can't give him any new information because of His omniscience, nor can you tell him what to do because of His omnipotence.

Perhaps that is why Jesus instructed us to tell our "mountains" about God, as opposed to telling God about our "mountains" (since he already knows all about them).
Mk. 11:22-23

[Michelle]

The Greek word for prayer in Phil 4:6 is proseuche <4335> whereas the Greek word for ask in James 4:2 is aiteo <154>.

This link says the English word for prayer has Latin roots.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?sea ... hmode=none

And Wikipedia mentions, "From classical times, it was used in both religious and secular senses. Prex is recorded as far back as T. Maccius Plautus (254 B.C. – ?)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer

It's interesting that because of the attributes of God, you can't give him any new information because of His omniscience, nor can you tell him what to do because of His omnipotence.

Hi Theophilus,

I'm having trouble understanding what points you are making, so if you have some time, would you mind elaborating?

First of all, since there are two separate words in Greek for "pray" and "ask", are you pointing out that praying does not mean the same thing as making requests of God (or, as far back as T. Maccius Plautus, anyone?) If that is your point, what do you believe praying is, then?

Secondly, yeah, it is true that you cannot give God any new information. What did you mean when you said it was interesting? Were you just making an observation, or were you saying it is futile to bother praying, or something like that?

What, then, do you make of this: Matt 6:7-8 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen [do]. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. "Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.? Then Jesus goes on to teach his disciples how to pray, which includes asking for stuff that he just told them their Father already knows they need.

I think you can TRY to tell God what to do, and people try it all the time. I kind of think that's how people often end up frustrated.

[darinhouston]

I understand the word for Prayer in Phil 4 is a specific term to refer to prayer specifically "to God" vs. a more general term for prayer to anyone, but the question remains as to both terms -- is it a general notion of "communication" or specifically "petitioning"?

[kaufmannphillips]

theophilus wrote:
It's interesting that because of the attributes of God, you can't give him any new information because of His omniscience, nor can you tell him what to do because of His omnipotence.

(a) Unless G-d is not omniscient (cf. Genesis 22:12).

(b) Omnipotence does not mean one cannot be told what to do. If an omnipotent being were willing to be told what to do, then one might be able to do so.

In parallel, it would be as if a parent were at a supermarket with their child. The parent asks the child which cereal they would prefer, and the child says, "Buy Smootberry Crunchy-Os!" When the parent buys that cereal, this does not mean that they lacked the power to do otherwise. Rather, they had the power and the willingness to do as the child said, and chose to do so.

[kaufmannphillips]

As for the meaning of "prayer"...

"Prayer" is an English word, and has its own connotation. The fact that certain Greek words may be translated with the English word "prayer" in certain bibles is neither here nor there. The Greek words have their connotative range, and "prayer" has its connotative range. If a translator uses "prayer" to translate a Greek word, such may be a better or a worse choice on the translator's part, depending on the circumstance.

Though "prayer" may have connoted petition in the past, in our present milieu prayer can refer to more than just petition of G-d. To restrict its meaning to petition would be like asserting that "gay" only means "having or showing a merry, lively mood." Language is pliable, and it evolves.

[darinhouston]

Umm - ok, but the question isn't about the english necessarily, but what the bible means by the terms that we typically call prayer.

[steve]

I think it is interesting that, when Jesus said, "Pray like this..." the model He gave did not contain any thanksgiving, any direct praise,* nor any two-way conversations with—or listening to—God. This doesn't mean that we should not practice any of these things, nor does it mean that we should not do some of the same (along with our prayers) during our times of devotion. It only raises the question of whether these activities are technically included under the term "prayer."


*"Hallowed be thy name" is not necessarily ordinary praise, since it probably rounds out the form of respectful address—like the words so frequently addressed to kings in the Old Testament: "Live forever!" or the more-familiar British: "Long live the king!" It is hard to determine whether it qualifies as an exclamation of praise, or as yet another petition.