A Mormon responds to Feb.29th show
Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:49 pm
I received (and responded to) the following email today:
Mr. Gregg-
I listened to your radio show for the first time yesterday when driving from Eugene to Portland. I must admit that I was surprised at some of the common sense interpretations you gave of Biblical issues especially compared to some of the harsh neo-Calvinistic interpretations I have heard from other so-called evangelical preachers.
However, you were grossly wrong in your statements about the Book of Mormon. I assume that you have simply not taken the time to get accurate information on the Book of Mormon but rather have relied on the "information" purveyed by anti-Mormon ministries. Such information is a mixture of little bit of truth and whole lot of lies. If you believe yourself to be a true disciple of Christ, you owe it to yourself to get accurate information so that you can give accurate information to your radio listeners. I am not saying you have to believe in the Book of Mormon, but you have to be accurate in what you state. A true disciple of Christ would not want to unwittingly be caught in bearing false witness about anything– including spreading false information about Mormons and their non-biblical scriptures. Don’t you agree?
First, you stated that there is strong evidence that Joseph Smith copied a manuscript by Solomon Spaulding to make the Book of Mormon. This was postulated as a theory to explain the origin of the Book of Mormon in the early 1830's, shortly after the book was published. Now, 170 years later, it still is postulated by many anti-Mormon ministries as the most plausible explanation for the origin of the Book of Mormon.
However, there is absolutely no proof of that Joseph Smith had access to this manuscript when he produced the Book of Mormon. Moreover, there are almost no similarities between the two books. I have a copy of the Spaulding manuscript. I have reviewed it. It is a romance about some ancient people in the Americas. It is more like a Danielle Steele novel than the Book of Mormon. Any honest person who compares the two books must conclude that the Spaulding manuscript could not be the source document for the Book of Mormon. In fact, he would conclude that it is laughable to assert that this romance story is the source document for the Book of Mormon.
The Spaulding manuscript theory of the Book of Mormon was debunked shortly after it first appeared. Over the years, additional evidence has come forth to disprove this theory absolutely. Yet, it continues to live as a primary theory of the Book of Mormon’s origin by anti-Mormons. Why? Because they have no better theory and because they are intellectually and morally dishonest. They would prefer to continue to promulgate this theory– which some of them must know is false– than admit that they have pushed a theory that is so thoroughly refuted. These anti-Mormons start with a premise: Joseph Smith was a false prophet. From this premise flows the following logic: Because Joseph Smith was a false prophet, there has to be a human explanation for this Book. We have to give some explanation to our people for the origin of the Book of Mormon. After all, we cannot let them think that there is no viable nonhuman explanation for the Book of Mormon; that might cause them to wonder if it mig ht be divine. So, it matters not if the theory is true or not, it just has to be an explanation that sounds reasonable so the people will accept it. They will never bother to figure out if the theory is true or not; they just have to believe that there is an explanation. Besides if we repeat the theory often enough– say, for 180 years– the theory will gain legitimacy just because of its age and because it is still around. The veracity or falsity of the theory is immaterial. All that matters is that the theory be accepted as truth by our faithful.
That, my friend, is a short summary of the history of the Spaulding theory. It is interesting that you are living evidence of the proof of this history. I stated above that the Spaulding theory just has to be reasonable enough for people to accept it since they will not bother to investigate whether or not it is true. You certainly believe it to be true, but you obviously have never bothered to check it out. If you are an honest man and have made any honest attempt to check out this theory, you would come to only one conclusion– the Spaulding manuscript theory is hogwash.
Now, I did not say you would conclude that the Book of Mormon is true, only that this theory is false. I am sorry that you have been duped by anti-Mormons who do not care about the truthfulness of their anti-Mormon propaganda. Now, here is the next big questions: Are you intellectually and morally curious enough to get the "real" information about the Spaulding theory? And, after you review it, will you be intellectually and morally honest enough to admit that it is not correct?
(Note that I am not asking you to accept the Book of Mormon only that the anti-Mormons have from the beginning perpetuated a fraud with the Spaulding manuscript theory. How ironic that these so-called Christians perpetuate a fraud– the Spaulding theory– in an effort to prove the Book of Mormon to be a fraud.)
I have lots of information on the Spaulding theory. I would be glad to get copies and send it to you. Do you want it?
Other statements you made were that the :Book of Mormon" makes many false claims" and that "nothing about the Book of Mormon is true". Again, those statements demonstrate a deplorable lack of accurate information on your part. Again, I expect you have just accepted the false information promulgated by the Anti-Mormon groups without making any effort to figure out if it is true or not.
It would be accurate to say that there are some claims made in the Book of Mormon that have not yet been proven. But that is not what you said. You said the book makes false claims and that nothing about the book is true. In other words, Book of Mormon claims which are not yet proven are considered by you to be false. Interestingly, you do not apply the same standard to the Bible. Did you know that there is absolutely no external evidence of any kind about Moses and the exodus of Israel from Egypt? That was a mighty important event that occurred in an ancient land about which we know much more than the ancient civilizations of America. With all the ancient documents and public monuments recovered from ancient Egypt, one would think there would be at least one little mention of the Israelites and their escape from Egypt. Yet, the only evidence for the exodus is the biblical text. There is no external evidence.
If we applied the logic you apply to the Book of Mormon to the Bible, then we would have to say that the story of the exodus is false. You wouldn’t do that, would you?
So, why do you accept the application of that logic to the Book of Mormon? Just because other so-called Christians do it?
Moreover, there is strong evidence of many kinds for many non-spiritual things about the Book of Mormon. For example, in the book of First Nephi, the death of an Israelite man named Ishmael is reported. Ishmael and his family were on a journey with another Israelite man named Lehi and his family through the Arabian peninsula. Ishmael is buried at a place named Nahom. From the Book of Mormon text, it is clear that this is the historical name for this place. In 1830, when the Book of Mormon was published, there was no geographical information available to Joseph Smith about obscure ancient Arabian place names. Interestingly, in the last 15 years, absolute evidence has come forth of the ancient name "Nahom" for a place in the Arabian peninsula in the same area where it appears that it should be according to the Book of Mormon narrative. Is this something that the ant-Mormon ministries tell you about? Of course, not. They are not interested in truth; they are only interested in find ing effective scare tactics– to scare non-Mormons from making an honest investigation of the Book of Mormon.
I have lots of information which is evidence of the Book of Mormon as an authentic ancient document. Are you interested in any of it? Do you have the intellectual curiousity and integrity to study it?
You stated that the Book of Mormon states that "buildings covered the whole continent", meaning the American continent. You claim this is evidence of the falsity of the Book of Mormon since buildings did not, in fact, cover the whole continent. However, you have misquoted or taken out of context a statement in the Book of Mormon. There is a statement about buildings which "cover all the land". However, when you read the full statement, it is clear that the "land" referred to is a region, an area, a territory, etc., not the whole continent. In fact, there are many places in MesoAmerica that meet this description where all the territory is covered by buildings. Again, you have relied on Anti-Mormons who do not care about the truth, only about scaring away people.
Again, I ask you– do you want to get information about the Book of Mormon so you can give accurate information instead of passing on the lies promulgated by so-called evangelical Christians who knowingly perpetuate false witness? I am not asking you to believe the Book of Mormon, only to become honest enough to stop spreading lies.
Ponder this: As of this date, all the many so-called Christian anti-Mormons have never come up with a reasonable explanation of the origin of the Book of Mormon. They have nothing. There is nothing. NADA! They just keep retreading the same old stuff– Spaulding theory or Ethan Smith theory. Or they latch on to Fawn Brodey. That’s it. That’s all they have.
Furthermore, all the non-Mormon anti-Book of Mormon stuff is on non-spiritual, non-religious stuff in the Book. None of these so-called devout disciples attempts to read the Book of Mormon with a half-way open mind to see what its TEACHINGS are all about. Yesterday, I heard you say that it is okay for Christians to read the Book of Mormon, but to do so with a CLOSED MIND. You did not use those words but that is what you meant. Why should someone have to have a closed mind? Why not just read the book to judge it honestly on the merits of its spiritual and moral teachings? What are you afraid of?
Let me know if you want to have accurate information about the Book of Mormon. I will gladly provide you with accurate information. Again, please note that I am not trying to convert you, only to get you accurate information so you can more function as an honest disciple of Christ who does not bear false witness.
Tony
Hi Tony,
Thanks for your lengthy correction. Of course, I would be happy to see any evidence that you have about external verification of the Book of Mormon. I am an open-minded man, and never advise anyone to read opposing material with a closed mind. Those who love the truth must consider all credible evidence before closing one's mind to new ideas.
I am surprised that you think anti-Mormons feel a need to find some fake story to explain the origin of the Book of Mormon, as if, in the absence of some literary antecedent, we would be under pressure to accept a supernatural theory of its origins. In my discussions with Mormons, whenever I have asked them to give me one reason to believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, they always say, "The Book of Mormon." They seem to be implying that the Book of Mormon itself bears the marks of supernatural origin. I have never understood this.
If the Book of Mormon's contents are such as would convince an intelligent man that the book must be inspired by God, then no theory of literary predecessors could help the anti-Mormon, because this would only mean that these divinely-impressive features were found in the earlier source document, suggesting that that one must have been inspired by God.
The only material in the book of Mormon that impresses me as being of divine origin is found in the chapters that Joseph Smith lifted directly from the King James Bible and copied verbatim into his book (Like the Sermon on the Mount from Matthew 5,6 & 7). The fact that Mr. Smith was naive enough to think that God speaks in King James English, and thus would "supernaturally" (by use of Urim and Thummim) translate "Reformed Egyptian Hieroglyphics" into a poor literary imitation King James-style English, only gives me more reason to question Smith's spiritual wisdom and credentials.
To me, the Book of Mormon could have been written by Joseph Smith (or any other clever fellow with access to a King James Version of the Bible) without postulating anything one way or another about divine inspiration. No one has shown me any reason to believe that the Book of Mormon contains any information or features that would require a conclusion that its author was inspired. I only repeated the Spaulding theory because I had heard it from people whose integrity and scholarship I trusted, and I believed it to be true. If, as you say, there is reason to distrust what these people said, I will be most happy to see the evidence, which I have not previously had occasion to examine.
My mention of the Spaulding theory had nothing to do with a need to find some literary antecedent to the Book of Mormon, for fear that, without such, I would be pressured to conclude that the book is inspired. I stated the theory without a vested interest in it, but only because I thought it to be correct. Again, I will gladly examine whatever evidence you may send to me.
As for my acceptance of the Exodus as historical, without archeologcal or historiographical confirmation, I have no problem accepting it, because Moses, who wrote the account, was unmistakably a genuine prophet of God. He was also an eye-witness and key-participant in the events recorded. Thus we have an impeccable historical authority for believing in the Exodus. That Jesus confirmed Moses' authorship of Exodus, and his authority as one sent from God, is enough for me.
The stories in the Book of Mormon, on the other hand, not only lack historical verification, but also lack the witness of a credible prophet or eye-witness (Joe Smith did not claim to have witnessed any of the stories he related in the book). There is no comparison of the basis for accepting the story of the Exodus, on one hand, and that of the Book of Mormon, on the other.
You asked, "Why not just read the book to judge it honestly on the merits of its spiritual and moral teachings? What are you afraid of?"
Fear has nothing to do with it. I do not argue that the Book of Mormon contains no reliable moral or spiritual truths. Nor would I deny the presence of such in the writings of Zoroaster, or Confucius, or the Buddha, or Mohammed, or in the Hindu Vedas. That is beside the point. The Book of Mormon's primary claim is not that you can find some good spiritual truths in its pages (my shelves are filled with non-divinely-inspired books that contain spiritual truths). The significant claim of the Book of Mormon is that it is the Word of God, in a similar sense to that in which the Bible is the Word of God. If this claim is not correct, it doesn't matter how many spiritual platitudes of a commendable sort the book contains. If it is not the inspired Word of God, then it is false in its primary claim—and thus is a fake.
Is it the Word of God? My points about its historical inaccuracy would be one indicator that it is not. The teachings about God and Christ, which contradict scripture, in Joseph Smith's other writings, further undermine his claim to being a true prophet (Deut.13:1-3). Joseph Smith's character and activities in the occult prior to his founding of the Mormon Church also do not encourage me to trust his (totally unverifiable) testimony.
Against all this, I have never seen (in dozens of lengthy conversations with Mormons) one shred of evidence that would indicate that the Book of Mormon is inspired. However, if there is such evidence, I am more than willing to examine it.
Thanks again for writing. I will be looking forward to seeing your materials.
Steve Gregg
Mr. Gregg-
I listened to your radio show for the first time yesterday when driving from Eugene to Portland. I must admit that I was surprised at some of the common sense interpretations you gave of Biblical issues especially compared to some of the harsh neo-Calvinistic interpretations I have heard from other so-called evangelical preachers.
However, you were grossly wrong in your statements about the Book of Mormon. I assume that you have simply not taken the time to get accurate information on the Book of Mormon but rather have relied on the "information" purveyed by anti-Mormon ministries. Such information is a mixture of little bit of truth and whole lot of lies. If you believe yourself to be a true disciple of Christ, you owe it to yourself to get accurate information so that you can give accurate information to your radio listeners. I am not saying you have to believe in the Book of Mormon, but you have to be accurate in what you state. A true disciple of Christ would not want to unwittingly be caught in bearing false witness about anything– including spreading false information about Mormons and their non-biblical scriptures. Don’t you agree?
First, you stated that there is strong evidence that Joseph Smith copied a manuscript by Solomon Spaulding to make the Book of Mormon. This was postulated as a theory to explain the origin of the Book of Mormon in the early 1830's, shortly after the book was published. Now, 170 years later, it still is postulated by many anti-Mormon ministries as the most plausible explanation for the origin of the Book of Mormon.
However, there is absolutely no proof of that Joseph Smith had access to this manuscript when he produced the Book of Mormon. Moreover, there are almost no similarities between the two books. I have a copy of the Spaulding manuscript. I have reviewed it. It is a romance about some ancient people in the Americas. It is more like a Danielle Steele novel than the Book of Mormon. Any honest person who compares the two books must conclude that the Spaulding manuscript could not be the source document for the Book of Mormon. In fact, he would conclude that it is laughable to assert that this romance story is the source document for the Book of Mormon.
The Spaulding manuscript theory of the Book of Mormon was debunked shortly after it first appeared. Over the years, additional evidence has come forth to disprove this theory absolutely. Yet, it continues to live as a primary theory of the Book of Mormon’s origin by anti-Mormons. Why? Because they have no better theory and because they are intellectually and morally dishonest. They would prefer to continue to promulgate this theory– which some of them must know is false– than admit that they have pushed a theory that is so thoroughly refuted. These anti-Mormons start with a premise: Joseph Smith was a false prophet. From this premise flows the following logic: Because Joseph Smith was a false prophet, there has to be a human explanation for this Book. We have to give some explanation to our people for the origin of the Book of Mormon. After all, we cannot let them think that there is no viable nonhuman explanation for the Book of Mormon; that might cause them to wonder if it mig ht be divine. So, it matters not if the theory is true or not, it just has to be an explanation that sounds reasonable so the people will accept it. They will never bother to figure out if the theory is true or not; they just have to believe that there is an explanation. Besides if we repeat the theory often enough– say, for 180 years– the theory will gain legitimacy just because of its age and because it is still around. The veracity or falsity of the theory is immaterial. All that matters is that the theory be accepted as truth by our faithful.
That, my friend, is a short summary of the history of the Spaulding theory. It is interesting that you are living evidence of the proof of this history. I stated above that the Spaulding theory just has to be reasonable enough for people to accept it since they will not bother to investigate whether or not it is true. You certainly believe it to be true, but you obviously have never bothered to check it out. If you are an honest man and have made any honest attempt to check out this theory, you would come to only one conclusion– the Spaulding manuscript theory is hogwash.
Now, I did not say you would conclude that the Book of Mormon is true, only that this theory is false. I am sorry that you have been duped by anti-Mormons who do not care about the truthfulness of their anti-Mormon propaganda. Now, here is the next big questions: Are you intellectually and morally curious enough to get the "real" information about the Spaulding theory? And, after you review it, will you be intellectually and morally honest enough to admit that it is not correct?
(Note that I am not asking you to accept the Book of Mormon only that the anti-Mormons have from the beginning perpetuated a fraud with the Spaulding manuscript theory. How ironic that these so-called Christians perpetuate a fraud– the Spaulding theory– in an effort to prove the Book of Mormon to be a fraud.)
I have lots of information on the Spaulding theory. I would be glad to get copies and send it to you. Do you want it?
Other statements you made were that the :Book of Mormon" makes many false claims" and that "nothing about the Book of Mormon is true". Again, those statements demonstrate a deplorable lack of accurate information on your part. Again, I expect you have just accepted the false information promulgated by the Anti-Mormon groups without making any effort to figure out if it is true or not.
It would be accurate to say that there are some claims made in the Book of Mormon that have not yet been proven. But that is not what you said. You said the book makes false claims and that nothing about the book is true. In other words, Book of Mormon claims which are not yet proven are considered by you to be false. Interestingly, you do not apply the same standard to the Bible. Did you know that there is absolutely no external evidence of any kind about Moses and the exodus of Israel from Egypt? That was a mighty important event that occurred in an ancient land about which we know much more than the ancient civilizations of America. With all the ancient documents and public monuments recovered from ancient Egypt, one would think there would be at least one little mention of the Israelites and their escape from Egypt. Yet, the only evidence for the exodus is the biblical text. There is no external evidence.
If we applied the logic you apply to the Book of Mormon to the Bible, then we would have to say that the story of the exodus is false. You wouldn’t do that, would you?
So, why do you accept the application of that logic to the Book of Mormon? Just because other so-called Christians do it?
Moreover, there is strong evidence of many kinds for many non-spiritual things about the Book of Mormon. For example, in the book of First Nephi, the death of an Israelite man named Ishmael is reported. Ishmael and his family were on a journey with another Israelite man named Lehi and his family through the Arabian peninsula. Ishmael is buried at a place named Nahom. From the Book of Mormon text, it is clear that this is the historical name for this place. In 1830, when the Book of Mormon was published, there was no geographical information available to Joseph Smith about obscure ancient Arabian place names. Interestingly, in the last 15 years, absolute evidence has come forth of the ancient name "Nahom" for a place in the Arabian peninsula in the same area where it appears that it should be according to the Book of Mormon narrative. Is this something that the ant-Mormon ministries tell you about? Of course, not. They are not interested in truth; they are only interested in find ing effective scare tactics– to scare non-Mormons from making an honest investigation of the Book of Mormon.
I have lots of information which is evidence of the Book of Mormon as an authentic ancient document. Are you interested in any of it? Do you have the intellectual curiousity and integrity to study it?
You stated that the Book of Mormon states that "buildings covered the whole continent", meaning the American continent. You claim this is evidence of the falsity of the Book of Mormon since buildings did not, in fact, cover the whole continent. However, you have misquoted or taken out of context a statement in the Book of Mormon. There is a statement about buildings which "cover all the land". However, when you read the full statement, it is clear that the "land" referred to is a region, an area, a territory, etc., not the whole continent. In fact, there are many places in MesoAmerica that meet this description where all the territory is covered by buildings. Again, you have relied on Anti-Mormons who do not care about the truth, only about scaring away people.
Again, I ask you– do you want to get information about the Book of Mormon so you can give accurate information instead of passing on the lies promulgated by so-called evangelical Christians who knowingly perpetuate false witness? I am not asking you to believe the Book of Mormon, only to become honest enough to stop spreading lies.
Ponder this: As of this date, all the many so-called Christian anti-Mormons have never come up with a reasonable explanation of the origin of the Book of Mormon. They have nothing. There is nothing. NADA! They just keep retreading the same old stuff– Spaulding theory or Ethan Smith theory. Or they latch on to Fawn Brodey. That’s it. That’s all they have.
Furthermore, all the non-Mormon anti-Book of Mormon stuff is on non-spiritual, non-religious stuff in the Book. None of these so-called devout disciples attempts to read the Book of Mormon with a half-way open mind to see what its TEACHINGS are all about. Yesterday, I heard you say that it is okay for Christians to read the Book of Mormon, but to do so with a CLOSED MIND. You did not use those words but that is what you meant. Why should someone have to have a closed mind? Why not just read the book to judge it honestly on the merits of its spiritual and moral teachings? What are you afraid of?
Let me know if you want to have accurate information about the Book of Mormon. I will gladly provide you with accurate information. Again, please note that I am not trying to convert you, only to get you accurate information so you can more function as an honest disciple of Christ who does not bear false witness.
Tony
Hi Tony,
Thanks for your lengthy correction. Of course, I would be happy to see any evidence that you have about external verification of the Book of Mormon. I am an open-minded man, and never advise anyone to read opposing material with a closed mind. Those who love the truth must consider all credible evidence before closing one's mind to new ideas.
I am surprised that you think anti-Mormons feel a need to find some fake story to explain the origin of the Book of Mormon, as if, in the absence of some literary antecedent, we would be under pressure to accept a supernatural theory of its origins. In my discussions with Mormons, whenever I have asked them to give me one reason to believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, they always say, "The Book of Mormon." They seem to be implying that the Book of Mormon itself bears the marks of supernatural origin. I have never understood this.
If the Book of Mormon's contents are such as would convince an intelligent man that the book must be inspired by God, then no theory of literary predecessors could help the anti-Mormon, because this would only mean that these divinely-impressive features were found in the earlier source document, suggesting that that one must have been inspired by God.
The only material in the book of Mormon that impresses me as being of divine origin is found in the chapters that Joseph Smith lifted directly from the King James Bible and copied verbatim into his book (Like the Sermon on the Mount from Matthew 5,6 & 7). The fact that Mr. Smith was naive enough to think that God speaks in King James English, and thus would "supernaturally" (by use of Urim and Thummim) translate "Reformed Egyptian Hieroglyphics" into a poor literary imitation King James-style English, only gives me more reason to question Smith's spiritual wisdom and credentials.
To me, the Book of Mormon could have been written by Joseph Smith (or any other clever fellow with access to a King James Version of the Bible) without postulating anything one way or another about divine inspiration. No one has shown me any reason to believe that the Book of Mormon contains any information or features that would require a conclusion that its author was inspired. I only repeated the Spaulding theory because I had heard it from people whose integrity and scholarship I trusted, and I believed it to be true. If, as you say, there is reason to distrust what these people said, I will be most happy to see the evidence, which I have not previously had occasion to examine.
My mention of the Spaulding theory had nothing to do with a need to find some literary antecedent to the Book of Mormon, for fear that, without such, I would be pressured to conclude that the book is inspired. I stated the theory without a vested interest in it, but only because I thought it to be correct. Again, I will gladly examine whatever evidence you may send to me.
As for my acceptance of the Exodus as historical, without archeologcal or historiographical confirmation, I have no problem accepting it, because Moses, who wrote the account, was unmistakably a genuine prophet of God. He was also an eye-witness and key-participant in the events recorded. Thus we have an impeccable historical authority for believing in the Exodus. That Jesus confirmed Moses' authorship of Exodus, and his authority as one sent from God, is enough for me.
The stories in the Book of Mormon, on the other hand, not only lack historical verification, but also lack the witness of a credible prophet or eye-witness (Joe Smith did not claim to have witnessed any of the stories he related in the book). There is no comparison of the basis for accepting the story of the Exodus, on one hand, and that of the Book of Mormon, on the other.
You asked, "Why not just read the book to judge it honestly on the merits of its spiritual and moral teachings? What are you afraid of?"
Fear has nothing to do with it. I do not argue that the Book of Mormon contains no reliable moral or spiritual truths. Nor would I deny the presence of such in the writings of Zoroaster, or Confucius, or the Buddha, or Mohammed, or in the Hindu Vedas. That is beside the point. The Book of Mormon's primary claim is not that you can find some good spiritual truths in its pages (my shelves are filled with non-divinely-inspired books that contain spiritual truths). The significant claim of the Book of Mormon is that it is the Word of God, in a similar sense to that in which the Bible is the Word of God. If this claim is not correct, it doesn't matter how many spiritual platitudes of a commendable sort the book contains. If it is not the inspired Word of God, then it is false in its primary claim—and thus is a fake.
Is it the Word of God? My points about its historical inaccuracy would be one indicator that it is not. The teachings about God and Christ, which contradict scripture, in Joseph Smith's other writings, further undermine his claim to being a true prophet (Deut.13:1-3). Joseph Smith's character and activities in the occult prior to his founding of the Mormon Church also do not encourage me to trust his (totally unverifiable) testimony.
Against all this, I have never seen (in dozens of lengthy conversations with Mormons) one shred of evidence that would indicate that the Book of Mormon is inspired. However, if there is such evidence, I am more than willing to examine it.
Thanks again for writing. I will be looking forward to seeing your materials.
Steve Gregg