It's A Thin Line Between Love and Hate...

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seer
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It's A Thin Line Between Love and Hate...

Post by seer » Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:11 am

On Steve's show friday he explained that God is a complex being - that He can both hate a man and love a man at the same time. So would it wrong for us to hate and love our fellow man.
Last edited by seer on Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

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steve
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Re: It's A Line Line Between Love and Hate...

Post by steve » Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:27 am

Psalm 139:20-22

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darinhouston
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Re: It's A Line Line Between Love and Hate...

Post by darinhouston » Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:16 pm

Psalm 139:20-22 (NASB) wrote:
20For they speak against You wickedly,
And Your enemies take Your name in vain.
21Do I nothate those who hate You, O LORD?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
22I hate them with the utmost hatred;
They have become my enemies.
Of course, that doesn't mean we can (rightly) hate our Christian brethren who love the Lord.

Also, even with this example, is this a "confession of sin" or an example of "righteous hatred?"

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steve
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Re: It's A Line Line Between Love and Hate...

Post by steve » Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:53 pm

The psalmist does not sound penitent. He sounds as if he is affirming his unswerving loyalty to God.

Troy
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Re: It's A Line Line Between Love and Hate...

Post by Troy » Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:45 pm

God hates his enemies because they are just that-- His enemies. All mortal enemies of God have been taken captive by the devil to do his will. Hence, their wickedness works against God's Kingdom. Since his enemies are of satan's kingdom, and God is going to destroy [bring severe judgment] upon all of his enemies, God hates all those that are of the devil. However, all mortals are God's creation. Though he is the spiritual father of only those who believe in His Son, He created humanity and is the Father of all his creatures, in that they are his creation. Because of this, He loves them, even though He also hates them. At least this is what I see Scriptures saying, and, Steve Crosby notes, on page 27 in his book "Accountability, Authority, and the Apostolic Movement":
  • Understanding that love and hate are not psychological or emotional qualities in a Semitic worldview helps "resolve" this tension.


When he said this, he referenced Malina, Bruce. J. and Rohrbaugh, Richard L. Social Science Commentary on the Synoptic Gospels.

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RickC
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Re: It's A Line Line Between Love and Hate...

Post by RickC » Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:19 am

Greetings. I didn't hear the particular TNP broadcast but have commentary.

The following is a summation based from a sermon by Larry Hurtado on Rev 15:5-16:21 {I'm re-listening, thinking, and typing, isn't exact wording but gets Dr. Hurtado's "gist"}:

The biblical writers had no option than to use "human words" in order to describe God. And when they did so, those words took on a newer and more nuanced meaning, in "God-describing."

In our modern, liberal, age, we see "wrath" as an emotive {or emotional} thing. We have big problems seeing God as one Who "is ready to take a swat at the next nearest available person" {quoting Dr. H.}. And, seeing God in this way, though it might be our first {modern} inclination; we should be suspect of our first thoughts on things-biblical and carefully reconsider if what we think is what was really meant to be conveyed in the Bible. Iow, our "portrait of God" can be colored by our culture's and our own ideas, rather than what the Bible truly has to say.

Fyi, God doesn't have Bad Hair Days.
Nor does He wake up on the wrong side of the bed, {'never sleeps for one thing}, ;)....

In the pagan world of biblical times, the gods could become instantly wrathful and vengeful, often for no known or apparent reason. They would "lash out" in emotional outbursts and do incredibly cruel things to humans and one another.

"The wrath of God" and/or His judgments in the Bible do not present God as One who is, for unknown reasons, "especially ticked-off." Quite to the contrary: His wrath and judgments are purposeful and specially directed toward the eradication of evil in His creation.

God is often depicted as Judge in the scriptures. Human judges, as we know, are to correctly assess the pertinent laws applicable to each case they try. When judges pass down sentences, they are merely doing their job and what justice requires. To be sure, judges often speak somewhat "emotionally," especially in cases when the crime was heinous or despicable, and the guilt of the defendent is patently obvious to all.

Any said human judge's emotionally-charged sentencing is something he/she needn't add to the delivery. Even as human judges are to weigh-out the law objectively and pass sentence in kind; so does God. However, any emotionality attached to "how the sentence is given verbally" doesn't indicate any type of "hateful" personal flaw or character defect in human judges, any more than this is reflected in the personality of God. A good human judge opposes evil-doing on principle...knowing right from wrong. God is the same way. Both kinds of "judges" do what they have to do: It's their "job" {or duty}.

Anyway, what Troy posted {Hi Troy!} gets us closer to a biblical worldview. We moderns always seem to have to have that dichotomy of "Love the sinner, but hate their sin." In the Bible times, what one does is inseparable from who one is. In this sense, as Troy pointed out, God can both love and hate us simultaneously.
But we just don't get-it...we really don't.....

Thanks for reading & gsty Troy, :)

P.S. This might sound insane, but I've actually prayed for the salvation of Osama bin Laden, Sadaam Hussein, and radical Muslim terrorists.
Do/did I like them? No, I hate them for what they have done and are doing.
Do/did I love them? Yes, because the Bible tells me so.

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MoGrace2u
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Re: It's A Line Line Between Love and Hate...

Post by MoGrace2u » Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:32 pm

Hi Troy,
P.S. This might sound insane, but I've actually prayed for the salvation of Osama bin Laden, Sadaam Hussein, and radical Muslim terrorists.
Do/did I like them? No, I hate them for what they have done and are doing.
Do/did I love them? Yes, because the Bible tells me so.
I suppose that salvation is the ultimate thing that we should pray for. But if we are excercising our discernment, shouldn't we address first things first?

For me, when I see an injustice being done this is the usual content of my prayer:
1. For God to make them stop, whether that is to get them caught or change their mind on what they plan to do.

2. If I am to play an active part, that the Lord make it clear what He would have me do or say and guide me according to His word as He makes the opportunity known to me.

3. I usually remind God that I know His desire is for all men to hear the truth in Christ and be saved, but also that vengeance belongs to Him; and so I pray that repentance is the ultimate good that will come from the consequences.

4. And I ask the Lord that in His wrath, He temper it with mercy as He keeps my heart ready to forgive if I am the one being wronged.

Robin
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schoel
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Re: It's A Thin Line Between Love and Hate...

Post by schoel » Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:54 am

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor’ and ‘hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be like your Father in heaven, since he causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Even the tax collectors do the same, don’t they? And if you only greet your brothers, what more do you do? Even the Gentiles do the same, don’t they? So then, be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.“
This is a direct statement of Jesus that contradicts the Psalmist' notion in Psalm 139:20-22 regarding the hatred of God's enemies. Since the statement by Jesus seems to be very clear, I think the Psalmist statement needs to be understood as having nuance.

1) Perhaps the Psalmist is using hyperbole to emphasize his collusion with God.
2) Or the Psalmists hatred is directed toward unrighteous activities, not persons.
3) Maybe the Psalmist is expressing emotion, but the expression of emotion is not a mandate on how we are to act.

I don't think the Christian is to ever hate people, and I don't think God hates them either.

Dave

Troy
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Re: It's A Thin Line Between Love and Hate...

Post by Troy » Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:22 am

Well, does God hate the devil? If so, would it really be a stretch to say that He also hates those that follow satan (angels) and the children of the devil as well?

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Jason
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Re: It's A Thin Line Between Love and Hate...

Post by Jason » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:16 am

What is the precedent for gathering Christian doctrine from the Psalms? Jesus told his disciples to go and teach people to obey the things He commanded. Biblical poetry may contain prophetic truth but doesn't seem useful in interpreting the words of Jesus. I think a better approach is to start with the words of Jesus and work backwards from there. So I agree with schoel here.

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