Steve,
I was reading through Acts after reading your latest post (not to try to prove you wrong, but just to see what was there) and I came across a portion from chapter 13 that might indicate that the gospel that was preached, by Paul at least, might have included promises of eternal life. Verses 44-48:
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 "For so the Lord has commanded us: I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth." 48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed [disposed?] to eternal life believed. (NKJV)
I think it is fair to assume that we don't have any of the sermons recorded in the book of Acts in their entirety but it seems very possible that the "salvation" theme spoken of so prevelently was expounded on by the apostles in speaking to the crowds. After all, Jesus had spoken of eternal life (e.g. to Nicodemus). Also, the remission of sins, and the salvation from sin that we do read of--might it not have been understood in the light of future judgment, where a right standing with God would be paramount, and not merely a present benefit?
Just some thoughts...
On a more personal note, and why I actually agree with you, Steve, in the main--concerning my own conversion experience, any thoughts of God rewarding me were the last thing on my mind. The Holy Spirit had convicted me of my rebellion toward the One who had created me, and all I longed for was to be right with Him...so I praise Him for the present work that He accomplishes in our lives and rejoice in the hope of our future with Him.
l2j
Fire Insurance? (June 10 Show)
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look2jesus
- Posts: 180
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Re: Fire Insurance? (June 10 Show)
And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowlege and discernment...Philippians 1:9 ESV
Re: Fire Insurance? (June 10 Show)
Didn't Paul say in Acts that he was being persecuted for his hope in the resurrection (which he preached)? Paul talked about the resurrection as often as he could. Also, Steve, this issue isn't confined to witnessing to unbelievers. My interest in this topic is more toward perseveraning through hardship as a believer, which I honestly think would be difficult if the result of this work were extinction.
Re: Fire Insurance? (June 10 Show)
Hi Jason,
On Paul's statement that he was persecuted for his belief in the resurrection, in Acts 23:6, he was referring to the fact that he preached the resurrected Christ (not his belief in the resurrection of the last day). He thought he could find common cause with the Pharisees against the Sadducees on this point, since the Pharisees accepted the resurrection of the dead, in principle, as a possibility, and the Sadducees did not. There would have been no persecution from the Jews for his belief in a general resurrection, which most of the Jews themselves also accepted (see Acts Acts 24:15).
L2J,
There may be an indication in Acts 13:46 that the offer of everlasting life was implicit in what Paul preached, though I think that, if Paul had specifically promised eternal life to his hearers in his sermon, and if that was a significant factor in his appeal, then even an abbreviated "faithful digest" of his sermon would have included at least a hint of it. My opinion is that Paul was bringing up the matter of eternal life for the first time with this audience, after their negative response to his message—not in order to entice them to convert (since they seemed at this point to be beyond any hope of that), but to let them know what they had forfeited.
This might be comparable to a man who, disguised as a tradesman, attempts to woo a young woman, and, after she rejects his advances, he reveals that he is actually the king of the realm, and that what she had unwittingly rejected was fabulous wealth and position.
On Paul's statement that he was persecuted for his belief in the resurrection, in Acts 23:6, he was referring to the fact that he preached the resurrected Christ (not his belief in the resurrection of the last day). He thought he could find common cause with the Pharisees against the Sadducees on this point, since the Pharisees accepted the resurrection of the dead, in principle, as a possibility, and the Sadducees did not. There would have been no persecution from the Jews for his belief in a general resurrection, which most of the Jews themselves also accepted (see Acts Acts 24:15).
L2J,
There may be an indication in Acts 13:46 that the offer of everlasting life was implicit in what Paul preached, though I think that, if Paul had specifically promised eternal life to his hearers in his sermon, and if that was a significant factor in his appeal, then even an abbreviated "faithful digest" of his sermon would have included at least a hint of it. My opinion is that Paul was bringing up the matter of eternal life for the first time with this audience, after their negative response to his message—not in order to entice them to convert (since they seemed at this point to be beyond any hope of that), but to let them know what they had forfeited.
This might be comparable to a man who, disguised as a tradesman, attempts to woo a young woman, and, after she rejects his advances, he reveals that he is actually the king of the realm, and that what she had unwittingly rejected was fabulous wealth and position.
Re: Fire Insurance? (June 10 Show)
Hi Bro. Steve!
We do not disagree on much, but I must take exception to your argument here. In a previous post I brought up the gospel (good news)and did not receive any comment. There are, as you know, a great number of references in the scriptures to the gospel being preached. Here is an example from the Book of Acts:
Acts 8:25 (New King James Version)
25. So when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, they returned to Jerusalem, preaching the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.
And what was in the gospel they preached?
Acts 26:15-18 (New King James Version)
15. So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16. But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18. to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
Ephesians 1:11-16 (New King James Version)
11. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Hebrews 9:14-15 (New King James Version)
14. how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15. And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
I think you will agree the inheritance spoken of includes eternal life.
It is difficult to prove your point from what is not said in the narratives of the preaching in Acts, which can be no more than a synopsis, and brief ones at that.
And what of John 3 and Jesus repeated emphasis of the good news: whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life? IMO John 3 contains the heart of the gospel that was preached everywhere.
We do not disagree on much, but I must take exception to your argument here. In a previous post I brought up the gospel (good news)and did not receive any comment. There are, as you know, a great number of references in the scriptures to the gospel being preached. Here is an example from the Book of Acts:
Acts 8:25 (New King James Version)
25. So when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, they returned to Jerusalem, preaching the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.
And what was in the gospel they preached?
Acts 26:15-18 (New King James Version)
15. So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16. But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18. to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
Ephesians 1:11-16 (New King James Version)
11. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Hebrews 9:14-15 (New King James Version)
14. how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15. And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
I think you will agree the inheritance spoken of includes eternal life.
It is difficult to prove your point from what is not said in the narratives of the preaching in Acts, which can be no more than a synopsis, and brief ones at that.
And what of John 3 and Jesus repeated emphasis of the good news: whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life? IMO John 3 contains the heart of the gospel that was preached everywhere.
Re: Fire Insurance? (June 10 Show)
Hi Homer,
Your reference to John 3 is a strong point in your favor, and we could add to it Jesus' remarks to the woman at the well. If these references to eternal life were characteristic of all (or even many) of the presentations of the gospel in scripture, then we might be capable of mistaking them for the real reason that people are motivated to repent. There is no harm in the mention of eternal life to an unbeliever, but the gospel is not about us and our saving our sorry behinds. It is about God's kingdom, God's prerogatives, and Jesus' crown rights. It is, as Jesus said, the gospel of the kingdom (Matt.24:14).
The other scriptures you gave only make reference to the preaching of the gospel. You are apparently awaiting a reply from me as to how the good news could be presented without reference to eternal rewards. My answer would be, it could be presented exactly as it is said to have been presented in the Book of Acts. The "good news," as understood by Paul's hearers in Thessalonica, was that "There is another king—Jesus" (Acts 17:7). Given the alternative, this is great news indeed! Those who know Christ intimately would never trade what they have now in His kingdom ("righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit"—Rom.14:17) for what they left behind in their old life. Certainly you know this from your own experience.
I have never denied that there are eternal consolations, so I am not sure why anyone would seek to prove such a thing to me. My point is that coming to Jesus involves, first, denial of self-interest, and the embracing of another King, on His own merits. This has been the basis of conversion since the first century, though there may be few in the modern church who know anything about such conversion.
My own spiritual life began, in the 70's, with my awareness of these basics. My reading of older Christian writers, who wrote prior to the present age of Christian self-affirmation, spoke with one voice about such matters. Reading Tozer, Thomas a Kempis, Brother Lawrence, George Mueller and many others, challenged me to think outside the cultural Christian box in which I was raised.
Just today, in my personal devotions, I was reading again Thomas a Kempis' "Of the Imitation of Christ." The section I was reading, quite coincidentally, was relevant to this topic we are considering. It comes from book 2, chapter 11:
FEW LOVE THE CROSS OF JESUS
JESUS has always many who love His heavenly kingdom, but few who bear His cross. He has many who desire consolation, but few who care for trial. He finds many to share His table, but few to take part in His fasting. All desire to be happy with Him; few wish to suffer anything for Him. Many follow Him to the breaking of bread, but few to the drinking of the chalice of His passion. Many revere His miracles; few approach the shame of the Cross. Many love Him as long as they encounter no hardship; many praise and bless Him as long as they receive some comfort from Him. But if Jesus hides Himself and leaves them for a while, they fall either into complaints or into deep dejection. Those, on the contrary, who love Him for His own sake and not for any comfort of their own, bless Him in all trial and anguish of heart as well as in the bliss of consolation. Even if He should never give them consolation, yet they would continue to praise Him and wish always to give Him thanks. What power there is in pure love for Jesus -- love that is free from all self-interest and self-love!
Do not those who always seek consolation deserve to be called mercenaries? Do not those who always think of their own profit and gain prove that they love themselves rather than Christ? Where can a man be found who desires to serve God for nothing? Rarely indeed is a man so spiritual as to strip himself of all things. And who shall find a man so truly poor in spirit as to be free from every creature? His value is like that of things brought from the most distant lands.
If a man give all his wealth, it is nothing; if he do great penance, it is little; if he gain all knowledge, he is still far afield; if he have great virtue and much ardent devotion, he still lacks a great deal, and especially, the one thing that is most necessary to him. What is this one thing? That leaving all, he forsake himself, completely renounce himself, and give up all private affections. Then, when he has done all that he knows ought to be done, let him consider it as nothing, let him make little of what may be considered great; let him in all honesty call himself an unprofitable servant. For truth itself has said: "When you shall have done all these things that are commanded you, say: 'we are unprofitable servants.'"
Then he will be truly poor and stripped in spirit, and with the prophet may say: "I am alone and poor." No one, however, is more wealthy than such a man; no one is more powerful, no one freer than he who knows how to leave all things and think of himself as the least of all.
Your reference to John 3 is a strong point in your favor, and we could add to it Jesus' remarks to the woman at the well. If these references to eternal life were characteristic of all (or even many) of the presentations of the gospel in scripture, then we might be capable of mistaking them for the real reason that people are motivated to repent. There is no harm in the mention of eternal life to an unbeliever, but the gospel is not about us and our saving our sorry behinds. It is about God's kingdom, God's prerogatives, and Jesus' crown rights. It is, as Jesus said, the gospel of the kingdom (Matt.24:14).
The other scriptures you gave only make reference to the preaching of the gospel. You are apparently awaiting a reply from me as to how the good news could be presented without reference to eternal rewards. My answer would be, it could be presented exactly as it is said to have been presented in the Book of Acts. The "good news," as understood by Paul's hearers in Thessalonica, was that "There is another king—Jesus" (Acts 17:7). Given the alternative, this is great news indeed! Those who know Christ intimately would never trade what they have now in His kingdom ("righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit"—Rom.14:17) for what they left behind in their old life. Certainly you know this from your own experience.
I have never denied that there are eternal consolations, so I am not sure why anyone would seek to prove such a thing to me. My point is that coming to Jesus involves, first, denial of self-interest, and the embracing of another King, on His own merits. This has been the basis of conversion since the first century, though there may be few in the modern church who know anything about such conversion.
My own spiritual life began, in the 70's, with my awareness of these basics. My reading of older Christian writers, who wrote prior to the present age of Christian self-affirmation, spoke with one voice about such matters. Reading Tozer, Thomas a Kempis, Brother Lawrence, George Mueller and many others, challenged me to think outside the cultural Christian box in which I was raised.
Just today, in my personal devotions, I was reading again Thomas a Kempis' "Of the Imitation of Christ." The section I was reading, quite coincidentally, was relevant to this topic we are considering. It comes from book 2, chapter 11:
FEW LOVE THE CROSS OF JESUS
JESUS has always many who love His heavenly kingdom, but few who bear His cross. He has many who desire consolation, but few who care for trial. He finds many to share His table, but few to take part in His fasting. All desire to be happy with Him; few wish to suffer anything for Him. Many follow Him to the breaking of bread, but few to the drinking of the chalice of His passion. Many revere His miracles; few approach the shame of the Cross. Many love Him as long as they encounter no hardship; many praise and bless Him as long as they receive some comfort from Him. But if Jesus hides Himself and leaves them for a while, they fall either into complaints or into deep dejection. Those, on the contrary, who love Him for His own sake and not for any comfort of their own, bless Him in all trial and anguish of heart as well as in the bliss of consolation. Even if He should never give them consolation, yet they would continue to praise Him and wish always to give Him thanks. What power there is in pure love for Jesus -- love that is free from all self-interest and self-love!
Do not those who always seek consolation deserve to be called mercenaries? Do not those who always think of their own profit and gain prove that they love themselves rather than Christ? Where can a man be found who desires to serve God for nothing? Rarely indeed is a man so spiritual as to strip himself of all things. And who shall find a man so truly poor in spirit as to be free from every creature? His value is like that of things brought from the most distant lands.
If a man give all his wealth, it is nothing; if he do great penance, it is little; if he gain all knowledge, he is still far afield; if he have great virtue and much ardent devotion, he still lacks a great deal, and especially, the one thing that is most necessary to him. What is this one thing? That leaving all, he forsake himself, completely renounce himself, and give up all private affections. Then, when he has done all that he knows ought to be done, let him consider it as nothing, let him make little of what may be considered great; let him in all honesty call himself an unprofitable servant. For truth itself has said: "When you shall have done all these things that are commanded you, say: 'we are unprofitable servants.'"
Then he will be truly poor and stripped in spirit, and with the prophet may say: "I am alone and poor." No one, however, is more wealthy than such a man; no one is more powerful, no one freer than he who knows how to leave all things and think of himself as the least of all.
Re: Fire Insurance? (June 10 Show)
Steve wrote:
When it comes to Jesus, what exactly are we "hoping for?"
TK
I agree with this.. but I am wondering where the idea of "faith" enters the picture. The writer of Hebrews says: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."My point is that coming to Jesus involves, first, denial of self-interest, and the embracing of another King, on His own merits.
When it comes to Jesus, what exactly are we "hoping for?"
TK
Re: Fire Insurance? (June 10 Show)
What is the hope of the believer?
"we...rejoice in the hope of the glory of God." (Romans 5:2)
"Christ in you, the hope of glory." (Colossians 1:27)
"looking for the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior..." (Titus 2:13 Gr.)
Our compelling hope is that God be glorified, both in our lives and in the world at large.
"whatever you do, do all for the glory of God." (1 Corinthians 10:31)
"but truly, as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord." (Numbers 14:21)
"we...rejoice in the hope of the glory of God." (Romans 5:2)
"Christ in you, the hope of glory." (Colossians 1:27)
"looking for the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior..." (Titus 2:13 Gr.)
Our compelling hope is that God be glorified, both in our lives and in the world at large.
"whatever you do, do all for the glory of God." (1 Corinthians 10:31)
"but truly, as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord." (Numbers 14:21)
Re: Fire Insurance? (June 10 Show)
Steve said:
What Jesus brought back to us was a restored relationship with our creator even though our flesh will certainly die, the life within continues on eternally because of the Good News of Jesus Christ. Yes, it is about saving our backsides.
I have to disagree with that statement because its all about restoring , through Christ, what was lost, through Adam. God told Adam that on the day He sinned that he would surely die and on the very day he did die. This was not speaking of his physical life but rather the life within him. Adam lived on for a few hundred years more but on that day he lost his life within.There is no harm in the mention of eternal life to an unbeliever, but the gospel is not about us and our saving our sorry behinds.
What Jesus brought back to us was a restored relationship with our creator even though our flesh will certainly die, the life within continues on eternally because of the Good News of Jesus Christ. Yes, it is about saving our backsides.
Re: Fire Insurance? (June 10 Show)
Paul was of a different mind (Romans 9:3), as was Moses (Exodus 32:32). God restoring what was lost by Adam may or may not include my personal salvation. I am expendable (e.g., Esther 4:14; Matthew 3:9; Luke 19:40).
I should have been more clear. I should have said "the gospel as it was preached by the apostles..."
I personally believe it is a particularly American mentality that has turned the biblical program of salvation into a man-centered enterprise, instead of a God-centered one. My statements reflect the contents of the biblical presentations of the gospel to unbelievers. If some find that the more American-brand of evangelization gets them the kind of converts they want, I will leave that to them and God to sort out. Do not fault me for wanting to present the same message that Peter and Paul preached. If you study their sermons and find some similarity in their contents to the American version of the gospel, feel free to follow your observations.
I should have been more clear. I should have said "the gospel as it was preached by the apostles..."
I personally believe it is a particularly American mentality that has turned the biblical program of salvation into a man-centered enterprise, instead of a God-centered one. My statements reflect the contents of the biblical presentations of the gospel to unbelievers. If some find that the more American-brand of evangelization gets them the kind of converts they want, I will leave that to them and God to sort out. Do not fault me for wanting to present the same message that Peter and Paul preached. If you study their sermons and find some similarity in their contents to the American version of the gospel, feel free to follow your observations.
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look2jesus
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:18 pm
- Location: Mesa, Arizona
Re: Fire Insurance? (June 10 Show)
Greetings once again everyone,
I finally had a chance to download the June 10th episode and, after hearing Steve’s response to the caller, I have a much better grasp of the point he was making.
It seems to me that the stress of his argument was constantly being placed on “what does it mean to follow Jesus”?
As I was listening I thought, as I often do, about my relationship with God and in how many ways this parallels my relationship with my wife. Now, I love my wife and I receive a great abundance of “rewards” because of my relationship with her. But I don’t think that these “rewards” form the basis of our relationship.
I made a covenant with her when we married and I made a promise to love her until “death do us part”. And, God willing, that is what I will do no matter what may happen in our marriage in the future, and whether or not these “rewards” endure, because of the commitment I made.
What I thought Steve was addressing was the basis of our relationship with Jesus. I think we could all admit that, in the church today, there is a dire lack of teaching regarding “counting the cost” when it comes to our relationship with God. Do we really love God? Are we ready to forsake all and follow Him? Are we ready to become the servant of all? Are we ready to lay down our lives for the brethren? Are we willing to humble ourselves and think of the needs of others as well as our own needs? Are we committed to loving others as Jesus has loved us?
But this is what the King demands. This is what a follower of Jesus strives to do because he loves his Master. And this, I think was Steve’s point. Admittedly, there are many promises that the believer can rest in that are wonderful encouragements to us, but is it these gifts that we strive for or is it the Giver?
I think Thomas a Kempis hit the nail on the head. Thanks, Steve, for posting that.
L2J
I finally had a chance to download the June 10th episode and, after hearing Steve’s response to the caller, I have a much better grasp of the point he was making.
It seems to me that the stress of his argument was constantly being placed on “what does it mean to follow Jesus”?
As I was listening I thought, as I often do, about my relationship with God and in how many ways this parallels my relationship with my wife. Now, I love my wife and I receive a great abundance of “rewards” because of my relationship with her. But I don’t think that these “rewards” form the basis of our relationship.
I made a covenant with her when we married and I made a promise to love her until “death do us part”. And, God willing, that is what I will do no matter what may happen in our marriage in the future, and whether or not these “rewards” endure, because of the commitment I made.
What I thought Steve was addressing was the basis of our relationship with Jesus. I think we could all admit that, in the church today, there is a dire lack of teaching regarding “counting the cost” when it comes to our relationship with God. Do we really love God? Are we ready to forsake all and follow Him? Are we ready to become the servant of all? Are we ready to lay down our lives for the brethren? Are we willing to humble ourselves and think of the needs of others as well as our own needs? Are we committed to loving others as Jesus has loved us?
But this is what the King demands. This is what a follower of Jesus strives to do because he loves his Master. And this, I think was Steve’s point. Admittedly, there are many promises that the believer can rest in that are wonderful encouragements to us, but is it these gifts that we strive for or is it the Giver?
I think Thomas a Kempis hit the nail on the head. Thanks, Steve, for posting that.
L2J
And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowlege and discernment...Philippians 1:9 ESV