Jesus and the Sabbath in the New Testament

[Paidion]

You do accept some of the Law, but do you accept all of it?

I accept all of the law of Christ. I do not accept the law of Moses. I don't have my family circumcised. I don't have a rebellious son stoned to death. Contrary to the Mosaic law, I do have heat in my house on the Sabbath. I don't observe the Sabbath (except perpetual Sabbath—ceasing from wrongdoing as Justin Martyr taught). I don't believe as the Mosaic law instructed, that a woman's hand should be cut off if she defends her husband in a fight by grabbing the aggressor's genitals, etc., etc., etc. I believe God's real law is carried out by doing for others as you want them to do for you. That is what Jesus taught:

So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. (Matthew 7:12)

Are you saying that when Jesus fulfilled the Law (and the Prophets) that you believe He only fulfilled prophecies of events that were future?

Jesus Himself said indicated that this is what He fulfilled with the following words:

Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled. (Luke 24:44)

What do you say of the commands of God spoken of? Are they not found in the Law and the Prophets?

Yes, commands purporting to be God's commands are found there. But many of them, such as some of the ones which I gave in my first paragraph, the loving God would not have given. I have suggested that some of Moses' instructions were his own ideas as how to control the large nation of Israel which was his charge. I have been thoroughly raked over the coals in this forum for this stance, but to my knowledge, no one has given a better explanation for the ungodly laws of Moses. They have merely stated that it is "scripture" and therefore true, or have unsuccessfully attempted to show that Jesus and the apostles upheld such laws as having their origin in God.

[Paidion]

Oh yes, with regard to my last assertion, Steve did make a good case for Jesus attributing the command to kill a person who reviles father or mother, to God. He quoted:

For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. (Matt 15:4-6)

As I see it, Jesus was simply stating their belief, that God gave this command, and that they were not actually keeping even that.

I pointed out that Mark affirmed that Moses said it, rather than God:

For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ (Mark 7:10)

But Steve replied (if I recall correctly) that Jesus and the NT writers made no distinction between what Moses said and what God said, he again affirmed that what Moses said or commanded WAS what God said.

[JacobMartinMertens]

Oh yes, with regard to my last assertion, Steve did make a good case for Jesus attributing the command to kill a person who reviles father or mother, to God. He quoted:

For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. (Matt 15:4-6)

As I see it, Jesus was simply stating their belief, that God gave this command, and that they were not actually keeping even that.

I pointed out that Mark affirmed that Moses said it, rather than God:

For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ (Mark 7:10)

But Steve replied (if I recall correctly) that Jesus and the NT writers made no distinction between what Moses said and what God said, he again affirmed that what Moses said or commanded WAS what God said.

The Torah, the Law, the Law of Moses, the Mosaic Law, the Ten Commandments, the Old Covenant, etc... are all dealing with God's Law. Moses was a prophet of God. The Old Covenant and the Law came to the nation of Israel from God through the prophet Moses.

The Ten Commandments were written by God Himself. Beyond that God instructed Moses in regard to the other things he was to write down. That is, they (these things) came from God.

[dizerner]

Jesus observed and taught the entire Law so we would trust him to fulfill it for us and inside us, instead of trying to fulfill it through outward obedience which will always condemn.

Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.

It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

The Law does condemn (God condemns), but why do you say outward obedience condemns? Obedience doesn't condemn. Disobedience does.

I said "trying to fulfill it through outward obedience," I certainly never meant to imply we could actually be successful. Honestly measure every moment of your life and tell me how close to obedience have you been? I know I'm not going to put my trust in my outward obedience.

[JacobMartinMertens]

Your trust should be in the living God who has saved you. I simply don't believe this means to not be obedient to His commands.

[JacobMartinMertens]

Here are some references to the old covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Exodus 31:18 NASB - 18 When He had finished speaking with him upon Mount Sinai, He gave Moses the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written by the finger of God.

Exodus 34:28 NASB - 28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Deuteronomy 4:13 NASB - 13 "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Deuteronomy 10:4 NASB - 4 "He wrote on the tablets, like the former writing, the Ten Commandments which the LORD had spoken to you on the mountain from the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly; and the LORD gave them to me.

Here are some references to "the words of this law".

Deuteronomy 17:19 NASB - 19 "It shall be with him and he shall read it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, by carefully observing all the words of this law and these statutes,

Deuteronomy 27:3, 8, 26 NASB - 3 and write on them all the words of this law, when you cross over, so that you may enter the land which the LORD your God gives you, a land flowing with milk and honey, as the LORD, the God of your fathers, promised you. ... 8 "You shall write on the stones all the words of this law very distinctly." ... 26 'Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen.'

Deuteronomy 28:58 NASB - 58 "If you are not careful to observe all the words of this law which are written in this book, to fear this honored and awesome name, the LORD your God,

Deuteronomy 29:29 NASB - 29 "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law.

Deuteronomy 31:12, 24 NASB - 12 "Assemble the people, the men and the women and children and the alien who is in your town, so that they may hear and learn and fear the LORD your God, and be careful to observe all the words of this law. ... 24 It came about, when Moses finished writing the words of this law in a book until they were complete,

Deuteronomy 32:46 NASB - 46 he said to them, "Take to your heart all the words with which I am warning you today, which you shall command your sons to observe carefully, even all the words of this law.

Moses wrote something in addition to the Ten Commandments that God wrote.

Deuteronomy 31:9, 24-29 NASB - 9 So Moses wrote this law and gave it to the priests, the sons of Levi who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and to all the elders of Israel. ... 24 It came about, when Moses finished writing the words of this law in a book until they were complete, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, 26 "Take this book of the law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may remain there as a witness against you. 27 "For I know your rebellion and your stubbornness; behold, while I am still alive with you today, you have been rebellious against the LORD; how much more, then, after my death? 28 "Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, that I may speak these words in their hearing and call the heavens and the earth to witness against them. 29 "For I know that after my death you will act corruptly and turn from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days, for you will do that which is evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him to anger with the work of your hands."

[dizerner]

Your trust should be in the living God who has saved you. I simply don't believe this means to not be obedient to His commands.

Brother, do not try to be justified by His commands but by his sacrifice, and you will do well. Christ will fulfill the law in you that you cannot fulfill! God certainly won't accept less than perfection, so don't offer him less than perfection.

[JacobMartinMertens]

Your trust should be in the living God who has saved you. I simply don't believe this means to not be obedient to His commands.

Brother, do not try to be justified by His commands but by his sacrifice, and you will do well. Christ will fulfill the law in you that you cannot fulfill! God certainly won't accept less than perfection, so don't offer him less than perfection.

Christ has already fulfilled the Law.

Now we who walk by the Holy Spirit fulfill the requirement of the Law. Romans 8:1-4. So now we need to know what this means.

Matthew 5:17-20 NASB - 17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 8:1-4 NASB - 1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

[dizerner]

Your trust should be in the living God who has saved you. I simply don't believe this means to not be obedient to His commands.

Brother, do not try to be justified by His commands but by his sacrifice, and you will do well. Christ will fulfill the law in you that you cannot fulfill! God certainly won't accept less than perfection, so don't offer him less than perfection.

Christ has already fulfilled the Law.

Now we who walk by the Holy Spirit fulfill the requirement of the Law. Romans 8:1-4. So now we need to know what this means.

Did Jesus die just for us to try?

4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Not just fulfilled for us brother. Fulfilled in us. What we need is the power and fire of the Spirit to do the impossible.

[JacobMartinMertens]

Brother, do not try to be justified by His commands but by his sacrifice, and you will do well. Christ will fulfill the law in you that you cannot fulfill! God certainly won't accept less than perfection, so don't offer him less than perfection.

Christ has already fulfilled the Law.

Now we who walk by the Holy Spirit fulfill the requirement of the Law. Romans 8:1-4. So now we need to know what this means.

Did Jesus die just for us to try?

4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Not just fulfilled for us brother. Fulfilled in us. What we need is the power and fire of the Spirit to do the impossible.

Can I say Jesus fulfilled the Law, and I ought to fulfill the requirement of the Law by the Spirit? Or is it just that by the Spirit of God I do fulfill the requirement of the Law, though Jesus is the only person to have never sinned. I am not saved by my efforts toward or of righteousness, but only by the blood of Jesus who died for me. I can say that Jesus fulfilled the Law for me. But that doesn't mean that I should not or do not fulfill the requirement of the Law. Romans 8:4.