Did Israel possess all the promised territory?

[dwilkins]

Throughout Hosea the two houses of Israel are seen as Ephraim and Judah, and they have separate destinies. Ephraim, or the northern kingdom, was killed and absorbed in to the nations. It was this absorption that God used as a mechanism to extend the promise of salvation of Israel under the Old Covenant (and thus their promised New Covenant) to the Gentiles.

Hosea 7:8 (ESV)
8 Ephraim mixes himself with the peoples; Ephraim is a cake not turned.

Hosea 8:8 (ESV)
8 Israel is swallowed up; already they are among the nations as a useless vessel.

Hosea 9:17 (ESV)
17 My God will reject them because they have not listened to him; they shall be wanderers among the nations.

These passages are referred to later in Romans 9, where he declares that the rejoining of the two houses of Israel are accomplished by the salvation (joining into one body) of the Jews and Gentiles.

Romans 9:19-26 (ESV)
19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
25 As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.' "
26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "

He claims this as a fulfillment of Hosea 2:23. 1 Peter 2:10 also connects the scattered members of Israel to this.

1 Peter 1:1 (ESV)
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

1 Peter 2:9-10 (ESV)
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

We also see this same imagery used in Ephesians,

Ephesians 2:14-16 (ESV)
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
15 by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. - more -

[dwilkins]

So, the point is that the two houses of Israel were split in their distinct punishments. Judah was kept alive under receivership (the reason why the four nations who were in control of them until the end of the Old Covenant are listed as they are in Daniel 2 and 7), while the northern kingdom was killed and scattered, becoming Gentiles. But, God brought them back together for their salvation, which the Apostles claimed happened in their generation. There are no grounds, then, for a regathering of Israel after that generation.

Doug

[Singalphile]

That is a good response, Steve. Thank you.

To me, the strangest thing about this issue (and related matters) is the practical implications, such as they are. I heard a man on Christian radio a few days ago saying how "Bible-believing, evangelical Christians need to stand with Israel now more than ever" and so on. He gave no specifics. What could he mean? How are we to treat Israel (the political entity/nation over there) any differently than any other nation? I don't know. Oh, well.

[robbyyoung]

That is a good response, Steve. Thank you.

To me, the strangest thing about this issue (and related matters) is the practical implications, such as they are. I heard a man on Christian radio a few days ago saying how "Bible-believing, evangelical Christians need to stand with Israel now more than ever" and so on. He gave no specifics. What could he mean? How are we to treat Israel (the political entity/nation over there) any differently than any other nation? I don't know. Oh, well.

Hi Singalphile,

He most likely meant supporting Israel in the western dogma of the futuristic (endtimes) mindset. Basically, if anyone is against Israel, by default, they become an enemy of God. Doug did an excellent job showing how the scriptures dealt with these issues in THE PAST. Today that territory is nothing more than a political quagmire steeped in a misrepresentation of historical Israel's place, to catapult this quasi modern nation into some futuristic promise come hell or high water. We will be stuck with this middle-east issue, concerning Israel, until the futurist paradigm in the western world goes away.

God Bless.

[steve7150]

But, God brought them back together for their salvation, which the Apostles claimed happened in their generation. There are no grounds, then, for a regathering of Israel after that generation.








Thanks for taking the time to share these verses.I will read them carefully. The issue to me is whether there may be multiple fulfillments or if what is happening with Israel and her neighbors is only a coincidence. All Israel's immediate neighbors want to annihilate her and now Iran has a clear pathway to nuclear weapons so if God wanted to use Israel for something and did prophecy it , it probably would look like what is happening. I don't believe in any temple being rebuilt but possibly God has something in mind, i really don't know.

[dwilkins]

I don't think there is a chance of a double fulfillment here. Paul clearly applies the idea of the rejoined two houses of Israel to the Jews and Gentiles of his day. There was to be a regathering, but clearly the Apostles taught it was happening in their lifetimes.

I also don't think that what is happening in the Middle East today is some sort of fulfillment of prophecy. But, I do think it's the fulfillment of the hopes of people who believe disasterously wrong eschatology. Since modern Jews draw on a messianic tradition that was never fulfilled, and dispensational Christians believe that these Jews are a permanently segregated people of God, it's no wonder that they combined efforts to create the modern state of Israel. If we were to successfully get through to them that neither of these presumptions is correct, then in a few generations there might be less strife in the region. Still, we'd have to deal with Islam in some way, and I have seen no desire at all to do so in American or other western government.

Doug

[robbyyoung]

I don't think there is a chance of a double fulfillment here. Paul clearly applies the idea of the rejoined two houses of Israel to the Jews and Gentiles of his day. There was to be a regathering, but clearly the Apostles taught it was happening in their lifetimes.

I also don't think that what is happening in the Middle East today is some sort of fulfillment of prophecy. But, I do think it's the fulfillment of the hopes of people who believe disasterously wrong eschatology. Since modern Jews draw on a messianic tradition that was never fulfilled, and dispensational Christians believe that these Jews are a permanently segregated people of God, it's no wonder that they combined efforts to create the modern state of Israel. If we were to successfully get through to them that neither of these presumptions is correct, then in a few generations there might be less strife in the region. Still, we'd have to deal with Islam in some way, and I have seen no desire at all to do so in American or other western government.

Doug

Hi Doug,

I couldn't agree with you more concerning your comments. You get Paidion's "Hugh" like avatar!

God Bless.

[Singalphile]

Hi Singalphile,

He most likely meant supporting Israel in the western dogma of the futuristic (endtimes) mindset. Basically, if anyone is against Israel, by default, they become an enemy of God. Doug did an excellent job showing how the scriptures dealt with these issues in THE PAST. Today that territory is nothing more than a political quagmire steeped in a misrepresentation of historical Israel's place, to catapult this quasi modern nation into some futuristic promise come hell or high water. We will be stuck with this middle-east issue, concerning Israel, until the futurist paradigm in the western world goes away.

God Bless.

Hi robbyyoung. I hope you're well. I agree regarding the prevalent dispensationalism, though there are other problems (radical Islamic governments/terrorists and radical Zionists and all that). One can find a lot online about why Christians should support Israel, but I haven't found any specifics on how Christians should do so. I suppose they mean that Christians should vote for politicians who will give Israel weapons or military aid, or something like that.

[robbyyoung]

Hi robbyyoung. I hope you're well. I agree regarding the prevalent dispensationalism, though there are other problems (radical Islamic governments/terrorists and radical Zionists and all that). One can find a lot online about why Christians should support Israel, but I haven't found any specifics on how Christians should do so. I suppose they mean that Christians should vote for politicians who will give Israel weapons or military aid, or something like that.

Hi Singalphile,

Yes, I'm extremely blessed, I likewise extend the same regards to you. I seriously agree with your concerns over radical Islam/terrorism. However, this mindset, in general, have been around for a long time, cycling on an uptick in our generation. Like most uprising, it will fizzle out until the cycle comes around again, and so on... Christian ideology regarding "Israel" will most likely continue to instigate and perpetuate the problems in the Middle East. Remember, these folks truly believe these are the same Israelites/Jews of the Bible. Which is totally presuppositional! They are no more blood descendants of Abraham than African-Americans are to Africans. You can identify yourself or roots to a culture without hi-jacking its ancient past and validity. Ideology says these people are valid (to a futurist paradigm), but that doesn't hold up to scrutiny, however the belief is strong and doesn't seem to be going away any time soon.

So yes, we will send them guns, fight wars over this ideology and so forth and so on...

God Bless.

[steve7150]

I also don't think that what is happening in the Middle East today is some sort of fulfillment of prophecy. But, I do think it's the fulfillment of the hopes of people who believe disasterously wrong eschatology. Since modern Jews draw on a messianic tradition that was never fulfilled, and dispensational Christians believe that these Jews are a permanently segregated people of God, it's no wonder that they combined efforts to create the modern state of Israel. If we were to successfully get through to them that neither of these presumptions is correct, then in a few generations there might be less strife in the region. Still, we'd have to deal with Islam in some way, and I have seen no desire at all to do so in American or other western government.








I doubt modern Israel was created only out of the fulfillment of the hopes of people with an eschatology. Many jews did want to return there but a lot of very unlikely things had to happen for Israel to be created and survive numerous attempts to annihilate it. Also i doubt Israel can actually do anything to satisfy the people who want to destroy her. It seems to me the hatred is beyond rational and not just about land, it does appear to me to be a supernatural thing. I think there are many OT prophecies about Israel's enemies that are debatable as to whether they were really fulfilled or may have more then one fulfillment and all those geographic areas mentioned are now Muslim. If modern Israel has any biblical purpose it's not because Jews are special or because there is any other way to salvation except through Christ but only because it serves God's purposes for something.