Radio Program & Mask Wearing

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Homer
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Radio Program & Mask Wearing

Post by Homer » Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:35 pm

Steve,

I didn't catch all of the discussion on yesterdays program about wearing masks for Covid-19 so if I misunderstood your position please correct me.

As I understood you your position is that it is not the government's business or that of anyone else to mandate wearing a mask. The purpose of wearing a mask is in most cases to protect others from Covid-19. The most common masks are made of cloth or are the surgical masks which have folds ands loops for the ears. They provide some protection for the wearer and significant protection for those around them. You can be infected with Covid-19 and have no symptoms (or never have symptoms) and yet pass the disease to others through coughing, sneezing, talking, and simply breathing. Wearing a mask is a great help in preventing this. The N95 masks (which are in great demand) protect both you and those around you.

My wife and I wear masks as we are told we should. I realize they are not convenient. As you are quite aware we have One to whom we must give account, and He commanded that we love our neighbor. Wearing a mask to protect others is a small thing we should all do if we are able, I believe that is the Lord's will in the matter, not only to love our neighbor but to submit to civil authority.

steve7150
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Re: Radio Program & Mask Wearing

Post by steve7150 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:19 pm

My wife and I wear masks as we are told we should. I realize they are not convenient. As you are quite aware we have One to whom we must give account, and He commanded that we love our neighbor. Wearing a mask to protect others is a small thing we should all do if we are able, I believe that is the Lord's will in the matter, not only to love our neighbor but to submit to civil authority.




I agree that considering that this virus is dangerous to a small but important segment of our population it is a small sacrifice to make for the good of others, not that much different then wearing seat belts or observing speed limits. It is a restriction of freedom to some extent but less important then the benefit.

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backwoodsman
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Re: Radio Program & Mask Wearing

Post by backwoodsman » Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:18 am

Did you catch the part where he mentioned that the mask mandates aren't based on science? He didn't just pull that out of the air, and it's actually quite an understatement. One can't research the topic at all without running into many prominent, qualified medical experts who say making everyone wear masks is crazy, and all the science (yes, ALL of it) is on their side. The main reasons are:

1. Wearing a mask to prevent infection, in either direction, isn't as simple as wearing a dust mask to prevent breathing sawdust. When you wear a mask without training and following very strict protocols for handling and frequently changing it, the mask very quickly becomes a warm, moist incubator for whatever pathogen it encounters. Then you touch the mask, then you touch and contaminate everything around you; and of course, every time you touch something, then touch your mask, you're putting pathogens right where they want to be to infect you or spread into the air to infect others. Cloth masks, in particular, do far more harm than good as far as spreading a virus.

2. To the extent that masks and other measures do work to stop the spread of a virus, they delay or prevent herd immunity, which is exactly what you don't want to do in an epidemic. Epidemics don't stop until herd immunity is reached; delaying it does nothing but make it drag on longer.

To that I would add: If the small percentage of people who are high-risk, and anyone else who cares to, would protect themselves by wearing an N95 or N100 mask that will stop a virus, then it wouldn't matter whether anyone else wore a mask or not. Then we'd reach herd immunity much faster, and this would've already all been over. That can readily be seen in the data from those places that did little or no locking down, and where very few people ever wore masks. And it's what the overwhelming majority of experts say, including my wife's ENT doctor, who one hopes knows a little about respiratory infections.

In my county, as of a few days ago, there have been a grand total of 18 confirmed cases and 0 (zero) deaths. Very few ever wore masks here; I never saw more than 5 or 6 in a day in town, and usually fewer. And most gave little or no thought to locking down or social distancing, beyond what was forced on them by the forced business closures for a few weeks. It's hard to imagine how more mask use or social distancing could've reduced those numbers.

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Re: Radio Program & Mask Wearing

Post by steve7150 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:15 pm

Then we'd reach herd immunity much faster, and this would've already all been over. That can readily be seen in the data from those places that did little or no locking down, and where very few people ever wore masks. And it's what the overwhelming majority of experts say, including my wife's ENT doctor, who one hopes knows a little about respiratory infections.




Herd immunity sounds good but there is a lot about the virus we don't know yet & it's possible that long term respiratory damage may occur or other organ damage. This virus is a lot more durable then i thought and even if a person develops immunity it may not last very long, it may only last 3 - 6 months, it's another thing we don't know yet.
It's true masks vary & some are better then others but it does seem that when people seriously wear it the transmission rate declines significantly. Florida & Texas & other places were doing great but eventually the virus reemerged & showed it is capable of hiding for period of times so unfortunately we do need a vaccine & need to reduce transmission until then.

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Homer
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Re: Radio Program & Mask Wearing

Post by Homer » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:09 pm

From the Mayo Clinic regarding herd immunity (my underlining):
Even if infection with the COVID-19 virus creates long-lasting immunity, a large number of people would have to become infected to reach the herd immunity threshold. Experts estimate that in the U.S., 70% of the population — more than 200 million people — would have to recover from COVID-19 to halt the epidemic. If many people become sick with COVID-19 at once, the health care system could quickly become overwhelmed. This amount of infection could also lead to serious complications and millions of deaths, especially among older people and those who have chronic conditions.
Love your neighbor; wear a mask around other people!

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backwoodsman
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Re: Radio Program & Mask Wearing

Post by backwoodsman » Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:41 pm

steve7150 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:15 pm
Herd immunity sounds good but there is a lot about the virus we don't know yet & it's possible that long term respiratory damage may occur or other organ damage. This virus is a lot more durable then i thought and even if a person develops immunity it may not last very long, it may only last 3 - 6 months, it's another thing we don't know yet.
That's no more true of this virus than of every new mutation of the flu; some are almost benign, some are pretty nasty, and immunity to one doesn't help you at all with the next one. Yet, the world doesn't shut down for any of them. We now have around 6 months of hard data on this virus that still says the same thing it said back in April: There's nothing special about this virus; it's just another virus that spreads about the same as most other respiratory viruses, and kills roughly the same percentage as the flu. And that's even with all the obvious, well-documented fraud in counting cases and deaths that's been going on all along; if the numbers were real and honest, I don't suppose it would be possible to keep people in this constant, ongoing state of fear.
It's true masks vary & some are better then others but it does seem that when people seriously wear it the transmission rate declines significantly. Florida & Texas & other places were doing great but eventually the virus reemerged & showed it is capable of hiding for period of times so unfortunately we do need a vaccine & need to reduce transmission until then.
Sounds like maybe you're getting your info from the media, rather than looking at the data yourself.

The idea that a vaccine will help contradicts your point in the first paragraph about immunity maybe not lasting very long. If natural immunity doesn't last, a vaccine won't do any better. Not to mention, there are some good reasons why there's never been a successful vaccine for a coronavirus. This is only one of the points of cognitive dissonance in the official narrative.

Florida and Texas are both far below the US average in deaths per million, so apparently whatever they're doing is working. That's generally true wherever you look at the places that did little or no masking and lockdowns; the worst of them are somewhere close to average, and most are far better than average. The data consistently shows that all the fear is completely unwarranted.

On that note, you may have missed the last paragraph in my post above. It's been a while since I've seen a mask around here, and still no deaths. I'm still trying to figure out how masks could've improved that.

The really bizarre thing (well, for this week, at least) is, now that the "second wave" surge is over (no need to take my word for it; check the data yourself), mask mandates are being rammed through across the country. One hopes that would be enough to make even those who don't normally do any of their own thinking wonder why.

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backwoodsman
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Re: Radio Program & Mask Wearing

Post by backwoodsman » Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:30 pm

Homer wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:09 pm
Love your neighbor; wear a mask around other people!
I would gladly wear a mask, if it were really the loving thing to do. But it just doesn't seem very loving to me to play along with what I know is a fraud, dangerous on several levels, just to make some people feel safer while actually making both them and me less safe. It seems much more loving to try to educate them (however hopeless that seems) so they can make better informed choices, and keep doing what I know is the right thing to do, as far as it's practical.

Frankly, calling wearing a mask the "loving" thing to do, while ignoring the science and other factors behind the choice of many not to wear one, seems to me like bullying and shaming to try to force compliance. It's disappointing that so many Christians have so easily fallen to the level of thoughtlessly joining into that sort of thing.

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Candlepower
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Re: Radio Program & Mask Wearing

Post by Candlepower » Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:40 pm

backwoodsman wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:30 pm

Frankly, calling wearing a mask the "loving" thing to do, while ignoring the science and other factors behind the choice of many not to wear one, seems to me like bullying and shaming to try to force compliance. It's disappointing that so many Christians have so easily fallen to the level of thoughtlessly joining into that sort of thing.
I agree, and it could not have been stated better! It is shaming and bullying, in the quise of love.

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Homer
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Re: Radio Program & Mask Wearing

Post by Homer » Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:36 pm

Hi Backwoodsman,

You Wrote:
Frankly, calling wearing a mask the "loving" thing to do, while ignoring the science and other factors behind the choice of many not to wear one, seems to me like bullying and shaming to try to force compliance. It's disappointing that so many Christians have so easily fallen to the level of thoughtlessly joining into that sort of thing.
I do not think I have been thoughtless in this matter; I read quite a bit of the literature. And I trust the advice of Dr. Deborah Birx, head of the White House task force on covid-19, who strongly recommends wearing face masks. You may not be aware she is a devout Christian.

What bothers me is things like this:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/p ... d=msedgdhp

This does not paint a pretty picture of Christians, rather they appear to be defiant and uncaring. There was more to the article than what is currently there. One of the attendees was interviewed and she admitted to no knowledge or interest in the science regarding masks and distancing. I have a nephew and niece in California who are not following the mandates regarding gatherings for church. The church they attend has temporarily relocated to a large building remotely located on a farm. There, they are able to meet together and socially distance.

The following is a quote from a long article from the Washington Post (I tried to copy and paste the link to the entire article but could not without becoming a subscriber) explaining how mask wearing may actually may promote herd immunity. Thought you might find it interesting:
Before the pandemic, Gandhi, the University of California researcher, specialized in HIV. But like other infectious-disease experts these days, she has spent many of her waking hours thinking about the coronavirus. And in scrutinizing the data on outbreaks one day, she noticed what might be a pattern: People were wearing masks in the settings with the highest percentage of asymptomatic cases.

The numbers on two cruise ships were especially striking. In the Diamond Princess, where masks weren’t used and the virus was likely to have roamed free, 47 percent of those tested were asymptomatic. But in the Antarctic-bound Argentine cruise ship, where an outbreak hit in mid-March and surgical masks were given to all passengers and N95 masks to the crew, 81 percent were asymptomatic.

Similarly high rates of asymptomatic infection were documented at a pediatric dialysis unit in Indiana, a seafood plant in Oregon and a hair salon in Missouri, all of which used masks. Gandhi was also intrigued by countries such as Singapore, Vietnam and the Czech Republic that had population-level masking.

“They got cases,” she noted, “but fewer deaths.”

The scientific literature on viral dose goes back to around 1938 when scientists began to find evidence that being exposed to one copy of a virus is more easily overcome than being exposed to a billion copies. Researchers refer to the infectious dose as ID50 — or the dose at which 50 percent of the population would become infected.

While we don’t know what that level might be for the coronavirus (it would be unethical to expose humans in this way), previous work on other nonlethal viruses showed that people tend to get less sick with lower doses and more sick with higher doses. A study published in late May involving hamsters, masks and SARS-CoV-2 found those given coverings had milder cases than those who did not get them.

In an article published this month in the Journal of General Internal Medicine, Gandhi noted that in some outbreaks early in the pandemic in which most people did not wear masks, 15 percent of the infected were asymptomatic. But later on, when people began wearing masks, the rate of asymptomatic people was 40 to 45 percent.

She said the evidence points to masks not just protecting others — as U.S. health officials emphasize — but protecting the wearer as well. Gandhi makes the controversial argument that while we’ve mostly talked about asymptomatic infections as terrifying due to how people can spread the virus unwittingly, it could end up being a good thing.

“It is an intriguing hypothesis that asymptomatic infection triggering immunity may lead us to get more population-level immunity,” Gandhi said. “That itself will limit spread.”
For myself I have watched videos of scientific demonstrations showing how various masks perform to contain the spread of respiratory matter. I am convinced they work and you are certainly not wrong to point out that they should be worn correctly. As such, I do not mean to demean, bully, or offend anyone who does not wear a mask, and apologize if you or anyone feels that way. I believe wearing them is a Christian thing to do and that we are commanded to exhort one another, in love, to put aside any inconvenience or resentment at being told what to do (not attributing this to you) for the sake of The Kingdom.

steve7150
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Re: Radio Program & Mask Wearing

Post by steve7150 » Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:54 pm

That's no more true of this virus than of every new mutation of the flu; some are almost benign, some are pretty nasty, and immunity to one doesn't help you at all with the next one. Yet, the world doesn't shut down for any of them. We now have around 6 months of hard data on this virus that still says the same thing it said back in April: There's nothing special about this virus; it's just another virus that spreads about the same as most other respiratory viruses, and kills roughly the same percentage as the flu. And that's even with all the obvious, well-documented fraud in counting cases and deaths that's been going on all along; if the numbers were real and honest, I don't suppose it would be possible to keep people in this constant, ongoing state of fear.




According to my own calculations it kills 3 times more then the flu which is 0.001 vs Covid which is 0.003. Apparently there are around 10 times as many cases then being reported. That's a significant mortality difference between the flu & Covid. Additionally 5 months of data is not that much and i wouldn't even call it 5 months of solid data as we kept changing positions.
As Homer said i believe Dr Birx & i also follow Dr Scott Gottlieb as i think they have been pretty accurate.
I am totally against lockdowns as they destroy the economy, take away freedoms & are of little help but masks are not lockdowns , they are more like a common sense reaction, at this point almost a fashion statement. I know my wife thinks i look much better in one & i want to keep her happy!
The fear factor is settling down but in my world, it's partly because of mask wearing as people feel it really helps slow the spread. I think it does but it also exudes confidence in people which helps.

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