Help me get ready for Good Friday / Resurrection Sunday

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Homer
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Re: Help me get ready for Good Friday / Resurrection Sunday

Post by Homer » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:24 pm

Paidion,

We are in agreement regarding what you just said! :D

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jriccitelli
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Re: Help me get ready for Good Friday / Resurrection Sunday

Post by jriccitelli » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:14 am

Obviously Jesus not only thought it possible for his disciples to be perfect just as the Father is perfect, but REQUIRED it of them! (Paidion pg2)
True, you ‘must’ be absolutely perfect in order to enter the presence of God, but since all have sinned we must all be cleansed and covered to enter His presence, and only Gods work can cover us.
The Law was a covering, if you kept it you were covered, it never made anyone perfect but it did give us a covering. Our sins were covered by the veils, blood and mediation of the priests, and nobody walked uncovered into the presence of God.
I do not know why you are quoting the Law (?), if your not going to keep the whole Law.

If being perfect ‘is’ a REQUIREMENT then, what would happen then if your 'not' quite so perfect?

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Re: Help me get ready for Good Friday / Resurrection Sunday

Post by jriccitelli » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:30 pm

I could request help (if possible, call the police, etc). But I will not resort to violence (attempt to kill the enemy) b/c that is the opposite of what Jesus told me to do. (matt pg2)
No. You don’t ask someone to do it for you, and then tell them they are wrong for doing so.
And besides you don’t generally just let a violently aggravated or dangerous person (or a situation) walk by without letting ‘professionals’ know, because after you’ve run away they may find another innocent person (or an innocent person may walk into the situation). Confronting dangerous situations ‘should’ be left to professionals, and professionals ‘should’ be called, that is why you call when you see a roaming lion or an angry drunk walking in your neighborhood. But if you are not going to confront a dangerous individual yourself then do not criticize those who are called. When a professional is called to encounter or stop or manage a dangerous situation he or she is putting their life at risk 100% of the time as our servants. Do not under any circumstances think the officers job is to take a jab or bullet for someone else.
They are only professionals, not martyrs.

I really like your thinking generally, so I think the problem comes from living in a protected perspective.
First there is the civil argument; You could not have jails, or property, or schools, or civility in general without law and enforcement, it is just a fact.
Do you think a dangerous person, or anyone for that matter is going to willingly get into the back of a patrol car, or step into a jail cell without the presence of a sword (?!).
Why don’t thieves just walk into a store and walk off without a care? Because they know there may be repercussions, and only armed intentional authority is going to persuade them to put on handcuffs.
I knew of kids who brought knives to school, and only gave them up because they knew the principle had an officer standing in his office.
Actually, this is not really that controversial of a point, since God put up with polygamy and other things that we would typically consider un-ethical. The point is, allowing something (like a military, or... divorce) is not necessarily an endorsement of it. (Matt pg2)
You are equating policing with sin. Divorce and polygamy is sin, protecting and enforcing the law is not a sin(?). (You still have God enforcing His own Laws, in fact adultery was commanded punishable by death, as were many other laws)
Now, if you're talking about a Christian officer, struggling in his conscience with his use of violence given his kingdom status...
Christians should participate in and help in society, this is Gods will on earth as it ‘will’ be in heaven.
We would ‘rather’ have Christian officers and Christian public servants that can make public 'service' honest, gracious, considerate, loving, compassionate, and just in order to 'better' protect and serve.
I would not counsel him to continue in the force. He is now part of a new kingdom and he has a new role to play (Matt pg2)
This is where I really disagree, have a godless person do the job, or take his place is better, for society and neighborhoods?
And two; equating Gods will with 'not' helping a person when in mortal danger. Kingdom doctors, lawyers and mothers also are 'in' the world (and a Kingdom mother can defend her children with her life).

Laying down our life in defense of the faith, when challenged on our devotion to Christ, dying when given the option of either denying our faith in God, or bowing down to another authority is a different situation than common crime and violent aggression. Being challenged to deny the faith is rarely subject or cause of a robbery or domestic violence situations. We are also told to give up all our belongings and money, leave our family, hate our father mother children and self, you do not see the principle? It is a call to put God first, but this also does not negate the wisdom of scripture. It is a call to use discernment and wisdom, with God as the The Rule and the law.

If a person in mortal danger cries out for help, do we help?
Mortally wounding an attacker is the absolutely ‘last’ resort, but there ‘are’ times when an attacker ‘cannot’ safely be stopped, you can die if you want, but you have might of as well run because your death will leave the victim just where they were before you showed up, only now more horrified. We are not Jesus. Jesus died for sins, he did not say we must die for another sinner. We are called to give our lives, and not think of our own lives as important when knowing we may die ‘trying’ to protect the innocent.
We give our life to protect the innocent, it is a different thing to be challenged to deny our faith if that is the sincere intent of the persecution, most domestic disputes do not center around people challenging their girlfriends to deny the faith. Most criminals do not crawl in a window with a gun to see if you will deny your faith.

I am not basing this epistemology purely on logic or reason. Christianity means Christ paid the price, we forgive others as we have been forgiven, but this message of peace does not negate being helpful, loving, praying for and laying down our own lives to protect ‘others’ from harm and violence.

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mattrose
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Re: Help me get ready for Good Friday / Resurrection Sunday

Post by mattrose » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:38 pm

jriccitelli wrote:No. You don’t ask someone to do it for you, and then tell them they are wrong for doing so.
I already addressed this objection. The government (including the police) have a recognized role in the fallen world. I would not claim they are wrong to do it. I simply claim it is not the way of the Kingdom.
And besides you don’t generally just let a violently aggravated or dangerous person (or a situation) walk by without letting ‘professionals’ know, because after you’ve run away they may find another innocent person (or an innocent person may walk into the situation).


I was only suggesting that fleeing is 'sometimes' the appropriate course of action. Sometimes it is not. And sometimes it would be appropriate to flee and then call for help.
I really like your thinking generally, so I think the problem comes from living in a protected perspective.
First there is the civil argument; You could not have jails, or property, or schools, or civility in general without law and enforcement, it is just a fact.
Do you think a dangerous person, or anyone for that matter is going to willingly get into the back of a patrol car, or step into a jail cell without the presence of a sword (?!).
Why don’t thieves just walk into a store and walk off without a care? Because they know there may be repercussions, and only armed intentional authority is going to persuade them to put on handcuffs.
Who is arguing for no law? Who is arguing for no government? Who is arguing for no police?
You are equating policing with sin. Divorce and polygamy is sin, protecting and enforcing the law is not a sin(?).
I was not equating them. I was making the general point that God often accommodates things that are less than ideal (whether they be sinful or not).
Christians should participate in and help in society, this is Gods will on earth as it ‘will’ be in heaven.
We would ‘rather’ have Christian officers and Christian public servants that can make public 'service' honest, gracious, considerate, loving, compassionate, and just in order to 'better' protect and serve.
Of course Christians should participate in and help society. But they do so, primarily, by introducing the kingdom to it. THY kingdom come. THY will be done. What we should be most passionate about is bringing the kingdom of God to earth, not bringing about the best version of the kingdoms of men.
This is where I really disagree, have a godless person do the job, or take his place is better, for society and neighborhoods?
In a sense it is better to have a non-Christian be a police officer.... since the job may require violence and such is forbidden of Christians.
And two; equating Gods will with 'not' helping a person when in mortal danger. Kingdom doctors, lawyers and mothers also are 'in' the world (and a Kingdom mother can defend her children with her life).
Again, I never said don't help. I said help in kingdom ways. I never said don't defend. I said don't attack with violence.
Laying down our life in defense of the faith, when challenged on our devotion to Christ, dying when given the option of either denying our faith in God, or bowing down to another authority is a different situation than common crime and violent aggression. Being challenged to deny the faith is rarely subject or cause of a robbery or domestic violence situations. We are also told to give up all our belongings and money, leave our family, hate our father mother children and self, you do not see the principle? It is a call to put God first, but this also does not negate the wisdom of scripture. It is a call to use discernment and wisdom, with God as the The Rule and the law.
If a person in mortal danger cries out for help, do we help?
Mortally wounding an attacker is the absolutely ‘last’ resort, but there ‘are’ times when an attacker ‘cannot’ safely be stopped, you can die if you want, but you have might of as well run because your death will leave the victim just where they were before you showed up, only now more horrified. We are not Jesus. Jesus died for sins, he did not say we must die for another sinner. We are called to give our lives, and not think of our own lives as important when knowing we may die ‘trying’ to protect the innocent.
We give our life to protect the innocent, it is a different thing to be challenged to deny our faith if that is the sincere intent of the persecution, most domestic disputes do not center around people challenging their girlfriends to deny the faith. Most criminals do not crawl in a window with a gun to see if you will deny your faith.
I'm a little confused by your wording. Are you saying Jesus' message of non-violence only pertains to certain aspects of our life (like when we are being persecuted for our faith?)
I am not basing this epistemology purely on logic or reason. Christianity means Christ paid the price, we forgive others as we have been forgiven, but this message of peace does not negate being helpful, loving, praying for and laying down our own lives to protect ‘others’ from harm and violence.
[/quote]

Amen! Is there something there you suspect I disagree with? I can do all of that without violence.

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Paidion
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Re: Help me get ready for Good Friday / Resurrection Sunday

Post by Paidion » Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:17 pm

JR wrote:True, you ‘must’ be absolutely perfect in order to enter the presence of God, but since all have sinned we must all be cleansed and covered to enter His presence, and only Gods work can cover us.
So you agree that we must be absolutely perfect in order to enter the presence of God. "But since all have sinned, we cannot be absolutely perfect, but if we are covered, we can enter His presence."

Suppose that every woman who was entering a beauty contest was required to have a beautiful face. Do you think a woman who had a disfigured face would be qualify for the contest if she wore a hood to cover her disfigured face? Would that be acceptable, or would she actually have to have a beautiful face? Would she have to have plastic surgery in order to obtain a beautiful face and therefore be qualified?

Do you think God will be satisfied with a person who has an ugly, fallen, sinful nature as long as that nature is "covered"? If he is covered, will God be blind to his sinful nature and see only Christ's righteousness? Or does the person require a changed, regenerated, healed, nature so that he will be acceptable to God? I claim the latter. This was the reason that Jesus died for us, "that we might die to sin and live to righteousness." (1 Peter 2:24). The person needs to be ACTUALLY righteous and not merely POSITIONALLY righteous as easy believism affirms. This can come about only through coöperation with the enabling grace of God (Titus 2)
Paidion

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Re: Help me get ready for Good Friday / Resurrection Sunday

Post by jriccitelli » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:45 am

For heavens sakes, there is no such thing as an ‘Enabling grace’, any more than there is ‘Faith substance’ as promoted by Word Faith.
Again, it is Gods Spirit that works through us, not 'Enabling grace'.
We 'obey' because we are ‘moved’ by the grace He ‘demonstrated’ by His sacrifice and death for us.
(Believing the Gospel means we are 'motivated' by Grace rather than what it was previously; reward or punishment)

1. It is 'our obedience' to Gods Will, not 'our works', that God wants.
‘… does the person require a changed, regenerated, healed, nature so that he will be acceptable to God?
Yes, that is why we must ‘die first' as I emphasized, ‘then’ we are raised a new man (finally we agree).
2. In this life we are covered by his blood; which covers all our sins. Then we agree (repent) to die to ourselves (baptism), we receive His Spirit (resurrected) and then God places us into His body (to become a new man in Christ)
3. In the next life we will be not only be positionally righteous with God (covered), but actually be right with God – only – and because – we are in Christ, for if we were not in Christ’s body we would perish before God’s Holiness.

Peace and Love

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Re: Help me get ready for Good Friday / Resurrection Sunday

Post by jriccitelli » Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:23 am

I'm a little confused by your wording. Are you saying Jesus' message of non-violence only pertains to certain aspects of our life (like when we are being persecuted for our faith?)
I’m a little distressed that you interpret Matt 5:39 to mean we cannot defend ourselves, family, or anyone against an attacker. All Jesus is saying is do not be aggressive. Go to extremes in showing restraint, conviction, kindness, patience and forgiveness but it is not saying ‘be unable to defend anything’.

This is the heart of the Law that Jesus is speaking of, yet remember Jesus is still speaking of the Law, He is not abolishing the Law, rather He is focusing on the heart of the Law – which also included death penalties and sacrifices. Jesus says in this sermon “unless your righteousness surpasses the that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of heaven”
Do you understand what Jesus is teaching from? The Law.
Jesus said “Go an extra mile”, he didn’t say go a hundred, or a thousand miles.
Jesus said “Give your cloak as well”, he didn’t say give everything to a thief.
Jesus said “Turn the other cheek also”, Jesus doesn’t say keep turning until your abused or dead, and everyone around you is abused, beaten, raped or dead also (it is often 'necessary' to use weapons to stop violent attackers).
Amen! Is there something there you suspect I disagree with? I can do all of that without violence.
Yes, I disagree with the last statement; All restraint and patience is fine, but you learn you eventually have to put your foot down. We are talking about civil servants who ‘must’ make an oath and decision to defend using deadly force (otherwise they will utterly fail if such a situation occurs). And you cannot defend against a determined mortal attack if the aggressor cannot be stopped safely by conventional restraint or procedure. If the aggressor continues he may harm, attack or kill more than a few, and unfortunately only deadly force can stop some attackers.
Much counseling, methods, devices (Tasers) and negotiations are gone to and over in length by police to put an assailant out of harms way. There does come a time when an attacker is better armed and dangerous than the victim(s) and this is what we are speaking of, when they continue to attack after negotiations and time no longer are an option.
If you refuse at this point, you have let down the victim, and likely put your partner or fellow soldier in a horrible deadly situation, where they were depending on you to defend.
I cannot lead ‘anyone’ to think that ‘not’ defending others is biblical, and that a Christian is wrong, or 'not obeying Jesus', for serving their country or city as an officer or soldier.

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Re: Help me get ready for Good Friday / Resurrection Sunday

Post by mattrose » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:58 am

jriccitelli wrote:I’m a little distressed that you interpret Matt 5:39 to mean we cannot defend ourselves, family, or anyone against an attacker. All Jesus is saying is do not be aggressive. Go to extremes in showing restraint, conviction, kindness, patience and forgiveness but it is not saying ‘be unable to defend anything’.
There are 2 mistakes one could make in regard to Matthew 5:39

MISTAKE #1 is to think Jesus is saying just be a doormat.... do nothing... don't resist in any way. You seem to think I am picking this option. I am not.

MISTAKE #2 is to agree that's what it says, but dismiss it accordingly in cases of last resort b/c it is impractical.

I suggest that the proper understanding of the passage is that Jesus is saying we are not to respond to an evil person in the manner that they acted toward us. If they acted in violence, we do not resist with violence. We resist in different, quite creative, ways. Jesus then went on, in the passage, to illustrate with various creative responses to evil aggression.

If you get slapped, make the slapper look you in the face and realize that you are a human being of equal worth

If someone is taking advantage of the poor, give them even the shirt of your back (So to speak). This will publicly shame them

If a roman soldier tells you to carry his stuff 1 mile (which was allowed), volunteer a 2nd (which he could get in trouble for). Make HIM the uncomfortable one

All of these methods are attempts to get the oppressor to feel ashamed of his oppression. They are acts of loving your enemy (desiring his good, which in this case, requires shame).

But the passage means what it says. We do not return violence for violence.
This is the heart of the Law that Jesus is speaking of, yet remember Jesus is still speaking of the Law, He is not abolishing the Law, rather He is focusing on the heart of the Law – which also included death penalties and sacrifices. Jesus says in this sermon “unless your righteousness surpasses the that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of heaven”
Do you understand what Jesus is teaching from? The Law.
Jesus said “Go an extra mile”, he didn’t say go a hundred, or a thousand miles.
Jesus said “Give your cloak as well”, he didn’t say give everything to a thief.
Jesus said “Turn the other cheek also”, Jesus doesn’t say keep turning until your abused or dead, and everyone around you is abused, beaten, raped or dead also (it is often 'necessary' to use weapons to stop violent attackers).
This section demonstrates that you really haven't yet understood my position. I won't respond with the same explanations I've already given.
Yes, I disagree with the last statement; All restraint and patience is fine, but you learn you eventually have to put your foot down. We are talking about civil servants who ‘must’ make an oath and decision to defend using deadly force (otherwise they will utterly fail if such a situation occurs). And you cannot defend against a determined mortal attack if the aggressor cannot be stopped safely by conventional restraint or procedure. If the aggressor continues he may harm, attack or kill more than a few, and unfortunately only deadly force can stop some attackers.
Much counseling, methods, devices (Tasers) and negotiations are gone to and over in length by police to put an assailant out of harms way. There does come a time when an attacker is better armed and dangerous than the victim(s) and this is what we are speaking of, when they continue to attack after negotiations and time no longer are an option.
If you refuse at this point, you have let down the victim, and likely put your partner or fellow soldier in a horrible deadly situation, where they were depending on you to defend.
I cannot lead ‘anyone’ to think that ‘not’ defending others is biblical, and that a Christian is wrong, or 'not obeying Jesus', for serving their country or city as an officer or soldier.
As I said numerous times. I do not know what I would do in the heat of the moment. But I do know that if you have already decided you're willing to kill someone who is attempting to kill you or your family... you may end up pretty quickly pulling the trigger when the situation doesn't demand it.

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Re: Help me get ready for Good Friday / Resurrection Sunday

Post by Paidion » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:26 pm

JR wrote:For heavens sakes, there is no such thing as an ‘Enabling grace’...
How can you dismiss "enabling grace" with such finality when Paul clearly taught it?
For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age... (Titus 2:11)
If the grace of God does not enable us, how in the world can it TRAIN us, "for heavens sakes".
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Re: Help me get ready for Good Friday / Resurrection Sunday

Post by jriccitelli » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:02 am

I appreciate the Christian ‘intent’ of the following comment;
‘I do not know what I would do in the heat of the moment. But I do know that if you have already decided you're willing to kill someone who is attempting to kill you or your family... you may end up pretty quickly pulling the trigger when the situation doesn't demand it’
I suggest good discernment be a priority for any Christian, as well the emergency training.
We need to know what we will do in an emergency, and it would appropriate and kind to let your immediate family know what you plan to do in an emergency (maybe they can make a decision to go somewhere safer if you’ve decided your not going to fully defend them). I can’t imagine a good father who would not defend his family with everything he has. Is not that why God made man 'and' woman? A woman expects a man to 'protect' her, being the weaker vessel, and children should have full confidence their father will keep them from harm – just like God would.

I have full confidence my son will defend his family, his sisters family, his nephews and nieces etc. with everything he’s got, and not deciding to die a martyr and leave the family alone to defend against the violent attacker, that’s very reassuring for the children. In fact I believe many of our friends would do the same for each other and their families.

I do not think you understand what I am saying here, and since I don’t disagree with you on much of anything else, and I do appreciate your peaceful ‘intent’ I will take this fight to different thread, I suppose I will name the thread; Can a Christian be a Pacifist?

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