Supreme Sacrifice (Chapter 3) ---- Offerings and Sacrifice

[Guest]

In no passage do we read that Christ died in order to forgive us our sins so that we could get to heaven. Rather, as the scriptures make clear, He died in order that we would no longer be self-serving sinners, but rather come under Lordship of Christ, overcome sin, become healed of our sin-sickness, and by His enabling grace actually become purified and righteous people who are eager to do good deeds, deeds that will help others to meet their needs. Proponents of the substitutionary theory of atonement believe that we are saved from hell. However, the angel announced, “You shall call His name “Jesus” for He will save His people from their sins.

I agree with you that Christ didn’t die <i><b>primarily</b></i> so that we will go to heaven. He came and died to save “sinners to repentance” (Matthew 9). But I still think that Jesus had heaven in mind for the faithful, and hell in mind for the unfaithful (Matthew 25). While not the primary thought in God’s mind, it was still a "side-benefit," although not the main focus.

What are your thoughts?

I tend to agree with you Loaves. Paidion, have you responded to this? I am no expert on substitutionary atonement or whatever, but it seems that there are some of this leaning who believe we were saved from sin and its power, along with its associated penalty.

Les

[Guest]

…who believe we were saved from sin and its power, along with its associated penalty.

I agree with you, brother.

Just like Adam & Eve (and the subsequent generations) died a physical death because of sin, unrepentant sinners will die a spiritual death in the Lake of Fire.

“For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.” (Rev. 18:5)

This passage, I believe was speaking of the great “Babylon.” And so, in judgment, it will be a matter of God “remembering” our sin. If He does, then you will walk down the road to hell.

If He doesn’t, then praise the Lord, you’re on your way to Glory Land!!

“For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.” (Hebrews 8)

Throughout the Old and New Testament, there are symbolic pictures of this “covering” over. NOT a covering of righteousness you just have to slip on. No.

Remember the parable about the wedding garments? Some were wearing the white garments, but some weren’t. Some people have no garments. These same people claim, “I’m clothed with the righteousness of Christ!! Now I can live as I want!! Jesus cloaks my unrepentant life!! HaaaHaaa!! And you, Mr. Loaves, can’t tell me what to do!!”

Those people are misled.

What is are garment made of? “And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints” Rev. 19:8

Now, we ARE NOT saved by works. Salvation is a gift. But that gift needs to be received. But we must, must, must (have I proven my point??) realize that our righteousness comes ONLY through Jesus Christ, enabling us, equipping us, and empowering us.

BUT!! Judgment is according to our works.

“I will give unto every one of you according to your works” Rev. 2
“and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works” Rev. 20

And by “Judgment” I mean when Jesus will reward everyone according to their works. I believe everyone in the Lake of Fire will be tormented eternally, “for ever and ever.” No one will escape hell. But, the degree of agony may be “according to their works.” I believe every believer will dwell in the New Jerusalem. But our blessings and our position in heaven may be “according to their works.”

Yes, Yahweh permitted the Israelites to offer appeasing sacrifices, although He didn’t actually want them, and certainly didn’t need them. What He really wanted was their obedience and their righteousness. He knew that that was what was best for them. But since they were determined to sacrifice, their sacrifices were to be directed toward Himself only.

If God didn’t need the sacrifices, how else could God “cover” their sin from His eyes? Their obedience and their righteousness? No. That’s not it either. What then? Yes, of course, God desired their righteousness, but something had to be done about their sin. What was it?

[Guest]

Paidion, what are you talking about? Yahweh told Moses in 3:18 to say to Pharaoh 'The LORD GOD of the Hebrews has met with us; and now, please, let us go three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrfice to the LORD our God.'

Yahweh Himself clearly commanded the sacrifice. It wasn't Moses' idea. Or, am I missing something?

It isn't at all clear to me, Les, that He commanded the sacrifice.
God clearly stated in Jeremiah 7:22 that he did not ... command their fathers in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt concerning sacrifices.

For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.’ Jeremiah 7:22,23

Yes, He told Moses to say to Pharoah, "Please let us go three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrfice to the LORD our God."
Moses was to tell Pharoah that as an excuse for going into the wilderness.
The Egyptians would have well understood appeasing sacrifices. Indeed when it was presented to Pharoah, it is clear that they said it would be an appeasing sacrifice.

Exodus 5:3 Then they said, "The God of the Hebrews has met with us; let us go, we pray, a three days’ journey into the wilderness, and sacrifice to the LORD our God, lest he fall upon us with pestilence or with the sword."

Now is there any record in Exodus that they actually offered appeasing sacrifices to Yahweh when they got into the wilderness. Was that really the reason that they went into the wilderness? Of was it to be given to Pharoah as a reason so that he would let them go?

They did offer the "sacrifice of the passover". But that was not an appeasing sacrifice. It was a memorial to remember that Yahweh had brought them out of Egypt and was established as a permanent annual event to remember Yahweh's deliverance of the Hebrews from the Egyptians.

[Guest]

It isn't at all clear to me, Les, that He commanded the sacrifice.
God clearly stated in Jeremiah 7:22 that he did not ... command their fathers in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt concerning sacrifices.

For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.’ Jeremiah 7:22,23

Hi Paidion,

Ok. I see where you're coming from now. It seems you're interpreting throught the 'Jeremiah' lens whereas I'm looking at it through the 'Exodus' lens. (It sort of reminds me of dispensationalists using a OT lens while non-dispos use a NT interpretive lens)

If the Jeremiah reference literally means that God never commanded them of 'sacrifices' then, you might be correct.

At this point, without having studied Jeremiah myself, I'd have to say that there must be an alternative interpretation. For instance, God could be saying that obedience was greater than the meticulous following of the sacrifical law. In my opinion, this is the general idea of the OT verses that you bring up to show that God never wanted sacrifices in the first place. The same idea is also found in Jesus' treatment of the Pharisees.

Do you have any comments/insight on what I've read concerning the sin offering not being a part of other nations' worship?

Thanks for your reponse.

Les[/quote]

[Guest]

Yes, Yahweh permitted the Israelites to offer appeasing sacrifices, although He didn’t actually want them, and certainly didn’t need them. What He really wanted was their obedience and their righteousness. He knew that that was what was best for them. But since they were determined to sacrifice, their sacrifices were to be directed toward Himself only.

If God didn’t need the sacrifices, how else could God “cover” their sin from His eyes? Their obedience and their righteousness? No. That’s not it either. What then? Yes, of course, God desired their righteousness, but something had to be done about their sin. What was it?

[Guest]

If God didn’t need the sacrifices, how else could God “cover” their sin from His eyes? Their obedience and their righteousness? No. That’s not it either. What then? Yes, of course, God desired their righteousness, but something had to be done about their sin. What was it?

Loaves, since this is the second time you have posted this, you must really be seeking an answer. Or is this supposed to be a refutation of my understanding of sacrifice?

Where do you get this idea of God "covering their sin from His eyes"?
Do you find that somewhere in the Bible? I have searched and been unable to find anything like it.

"Something had to be done about their sin." True! If you read what the prophets said throughout the Old Testament, you will see what had to be done about it. They needed to forsake it, and begin to do righteousness.

Here is one example:

"Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil; learn to do good; seek justice, reprove the ruthless, defend the orphan, plead for the widow.
"Come now, and let us reason together," Says Yahweh, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool. If you consent and obey, you will eat the best of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword." Truly, the mouth of Yahweh has spoken. Isaiah 1:16-20

[Guest]

Loaves, since this is the second time you have posted this, you must really be seeking an answer. Or is this supposed to be a refutation of my understanding of sacrifice?

Yes, I posted a second time because I wasn’t given an answer. Some of Les Wright’s and my own questions have never been answered either. I just wanted to make sure you noticed them.

Where do you get this idea of God "covering their sin from His eyes"?

I got it from the Bible.

Lev. 4:20b – “and the priest shall make atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.”

The root word of “atonement” means to “cover over,” and it is used, for example, to describe how Noah “covered over” the ark with pitch.

Also in James 5: “and shall hide a multitude of sins.” The NKJV renders “hide” as “cover,” referring to God’s covering of past sins with forgiveness.

Also in Psalm 32: “Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.”

Also in Psalm 85: “Thou hast forgiven the iniquity of thy people, thou hast covered all their sin.”

Also in 1 Peter 4: “charity shall cover the multitude of sins.” Love keeps no record of wrongs done to him, in the exact same way God forgives us. Ibid. Proverbs 10:12, Matthew 18:21.

"Something had to be done about their sin." True! If you read what the prophets said throughout the Old Testament, you will see what had to be done about it. They needed to forsake it, and begin to do righteousness.

Yes I have read what the prophets said, and I would think that they would disagree with you. Either that or I need more clarification on what you believe.

You quote the prophet Isaiah who say “Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil; learn to do good.” But that same Isaiah said that the Messiah “shalt make his soul an offering for sin.”

You say that God didn’t want sacrifices for sin. Did He not want Jesus then? What was the purpose of Jesus coming then? I think it was to “save his people from their sins.”

He wanted the Israelites to forsake their sin. That is true. But I tell you, our sin has eternal consequences that mortal men can “make right” by themselves. Sin is not dirt you can just brush off. Sin is a stain that takes cleansing to remove. Otherwise, why would Paul use the symbolism “ye are washed” when referencing the blood of Christ. Also in 1 John: “Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”

You mention “Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool.” The writer of Hebrews says “our bodies washed with pure water.” Can we wash ourselves?

Paidion, I really need some clarification on what you do and do not believe. I think that would be very helpful to our readers.

[Guest]

Loaves, none of the scriptures you quoted speak of "God covering their sin from His eyes". That idea appears to be a mental construct of those who already believe this to be the meaning of the covering.

I gave an alternate explanation of the covering in a previous post, the one which I believe to be true. You seem to have ignored it. So I don't know what you mean concering "further clarification".

If you really want to know what I believe you need only to read what I have written and try to open your mind do understand it ---- even if you don't agree with it.

There's not much more I can say.

[Guest]

Paidion,

One thing needs to be cleared up. It is correct that God does not need our sacrifices. He does not need our obedience either. He does not need our fellowship. He does not need anything. Acts 17:25 "Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.

What God needs and what He may require of us are two different things. I believe God created us to share in the love that existed from all eternity between God, His Word (now Jesus), and the Spirit. God was never ever (trope: hypebole, like forever and ever, meaning without end) alone.

I would really like to know if you have any assurance of salvation (justification). If you do, what is your confidence based on? The fact you've repented and are to a degree sanctified? I do not believe you think you can become perfect, and if you did reach perfection this still wouldn't atone for your past sins. How are they atoned (oops,you don't believe in that!) for?

But God forbid that I should glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. - Galatians 6:14. My only hope is Christ, otherwise I have nothing to be hopeful about. It is certainly true that we will be judged by our works, the scriptures everywhere affirm that. Our good works only count if they are evidence of faith - have the meaning of faith, if you will.

[Guest]

One thing needs to be cleared up. It is correct that God does not need our sacrifices. He does not need our obedience either. He does not need our fellowship. He does not need anything. Acts 17:25 "Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.

Correct, Homer. Our God stands in need of nothing. It's amazing that He desired fellowship with others, creating angels and man, isn't it?

What God needs and what He may require of us are two different things.

You're right again!

I believe God created us to share in the love that existed from all eternity between God, His Word (now Jesus), and the Spirit. God was never ever (trope: hypebole, like forever and ever, meaning without end) alone.

As you probably realize by now, I don't believe in Trinitarian teaching, a teaching that was never spread around until the fourth century.

I would really like to know if you have any assurance of salvation (justification). If you do, what is your confidence based on?

As you know, I believe that salvation from sin is progressive, and I will not "know that I have been saved" until I have been saved. "Justification" is another matter. I believe that when I repented of my sin, submitted myself to Christ, and was baptized, I entered the door of salvation. Jesus "died that I might no longer live for myself but for Him" 2 Cor 5:15.
As long as I continue in submission to Him, I have confidence that I will be raised from death and live continuously in His presence.

Hebrews 3:14 For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end...

I have confidence that I will, by His enabling grace, continue. If He had not died for me, I would have no ability to do this.

The fact you've repented and are to a degree sanctified? I do not believe you think you can become perfect, and if you did reach perfection this still wouldn't atone for your past sins. How are they atoned (oops,you don't believe in that!) for?

I don't believe my past sins have to be "atoned for". When I submit to Christ, my past sins are forgiven.

As George MacDonald (C.S. Lewis's mentor) stated:

"A man is right when there is no wrong in him. The wrong, the evil in him; he must be set free from it. I do not mean set free from the sins he has done: that will follow; I mean the sins he is doing, or is capable of doing; the sins in his being which spoil his nature ---- the wrongness in him --- the evil he consents to; the sin he is, which makes him do the sin he does."
--- The Hope of the Gospel, Chapter 1 Salvation from Sin, by George MacDonald.

In the words of Jesus:

John 8:36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

If we are being set free from the sin in our lives, what purpose would there be for God to punish past sin?

In 2 Corinthians it is written: "He made Him who knew no sin to be made sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God."

MacDonald dealt with the view that this means "Jesus was treated by God as if He were a sinner, our sins being imputed to Him, in order that we might be treated as if we were righteous, his righteousness being imputed to us."

MacDonald wrote:

That is, by a sort of legal fiction, Jesus was was treated as what he was not, in order that we might be treated as what we are not." Unspoken Sermons III "Righteousness"

MacDonald called this "the most contemptible of false doctrines."
I strongly recommend reading MacDonald's The Hope of the Gospel, chapter 1 Salvation from Sin and chapter 2 The Remission of Sins. Also His Unspoken Sermons, particurily volume 3. All of
these are available online and may be downloaded. They are public domain.

But God forbid that I should glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. - Galatians 6:14.

Amen!!! This quote expresses exactly what I believe! This is the very purpose of the cross, of the death of our Lord Jesus Christ ----- this is the means by which "the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world."

My only hope is Christ, otherwise I have nothing to be hopeful about.

Absolutely!

It is certainly true that we will be judged by our works, the scriptures everywhere affirm that.

Yes.

Our good works only count if they are evidence of faith - have the meaning of faith, if you will.

We don't begin with faith. We begin with repentance and submission to Christ. Once we are on that road, we appropriate by faith the enabling grace of Christ to overcome wrongdoing.

Never have I suggested that "good works" in the sense of self-effort is the means of getting right with God or that doing them makes the death of Christ unnecessary. Rather I have maintained all along that it is the death of Christ that makes consistent righteousness possible, and that this is the very reason for Christ's death.

He Himself carried off our sins in His body on the tree that we might die to sin and live to righteousness... I Peter 2:24

What He accomplished on the tree was the dismissal, the sending away of our sins so that we would be capable of forsaking them and living righteously. When we are on that road, God will not hold our former sins against us.

According to Romans 2, it is necessary to "persevere in well-doing" in order to have eternal life. Please read this passage carefully, and tell me whether works has any relation to eternal life:

For he will render to everyone according to his works: to those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil ... but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good ... For God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-11)