The Supreme Sacrifice of Jesus Christ

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_Paidion
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Post by _Paidion » Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:13 am

Is our becoming righteous effortless on our part? Do we just relax and let Jesus do the work ( a la Bob George)?
No. We must co-operate with the enabling grace of God made available through the supreme sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
Or is it a great struggle as Paul described (I beat my body, etc.).
Yes, it's a struggle. But thanks to God, we have the grace of Christ to enable us. May we continually draw near to that throne of Grace to receive mercy and grace in a time of need!
How, in your view, does our being righteous or good persons differ from all non-Christians if God does not impute something to us we do not have?
Our righteousness differs from that of non-Christians in the sense that it is more consistent. This is the outcome of having been regenerated. "Old things have passed away, and behold, all things have become new!"

Moreover we have the enabling grace of Christ available to us. Any righteousness non-Christians possess and good deeds they perform, must have come about by self-effort alone, and sooner or later, self-effort will fail, since fallen humanity by nature has a tendency toward wrong doing.
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"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald

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Post by _Paidion » Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:28 am

If on judgement day God lined up every person who ever lived in a row with the absolute worst sinner at the left end and the most righteous to the right, I do not believe there would be any discernable difference between any two people along the line in regard to their works or goodness. In fact, there would probably be many unbelievers ranked higher than many of the Christians and interspersed among them. Yet Jesus informs us it will be easy to draw the line, make the cut if you will, between the saved and the lost. As easy as separating sheep from goats - very easy. How will God, according to your theory, divide them; on what grounds?


My theory is not important. But God through Paul gave the answer as to how they are divided in Romans 2:6-11:

For he will render to every person according to his works:

The Righteous
to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life;

The Unrighteous
but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

The Unrighteous
Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek.

The Righteous
but glory and honour and peace for every one who does good...

For God shows no partiality.
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Post by _Homer » Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:38 pm

Paidion,

Perhaps you didn't understand what I was attempting to get at. How exactly do you define good and evil? Is it the quantity or quality that counts?

If reports of his conversion I heard are true, I expect to meet Ted Bundy in heaven. He reportedly was converted shortly before his execution. He certainly did an immense amount of evil, with almost no time left to do good. I will be happy to see him there; with a "robe washed white in the blood of the lamb". The efficacy of Jesus sacrifice knows no bounds!

On the other hand there are many unbelievers who do much good. On what ground are their good works discounted in your view?
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Post by _Paidion » Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:03 pm

The Egyptians, I think it was, believed in a giant balance scale in the judgment. Your good works were placed on one pan of the scale, and your evil works were placed on the other. Whichever outweighed the other determined your destiny.

I want to make it clear that this is not my concept of being judged according to our works. Homer, it is neither quantity nor quality that counts as to whether you will escape the corrective judgment of God in Gehenna.

Rather it depends upon whether or not one has repented of His sin, and submitted to the authority of Christ (this normally includes baptism).

When a person does this late in life, whether or not he has done a lot of good works is irrelevant. His past sins are just as much forgiven as in the case of the one who has served the Lord all his life. This truth does not mitigate against the fact that Jesus died to make us righteous persons.

However, there is scriptural evidence that there will be corrective judgments even for some of those who have entered the door of salvation.

In the following passage, Jesus spoke of three classes of offenders, all of them SERVANTS OF THE MASTER, but one of whom will be "scourged severely" with the unfaithful ---- presumably in Gehenna, and two of which will receive correction in differing degrees of severity.

"You also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an unexpected hour."

Peter said, "Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?"

And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing. Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.

"But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will severely scourge him, and put him with the unfaithful.

"And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating.

"But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating." Luke 12:40-48
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Post by _loaves » Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:00 pm

This is something I wrote from a previous topic:

- - - -

Remember the parable about the wedding garments? Some were wearing the white garments, but some weren’t. Some people have no garments. These same people claim, “I’m clothed with the righteousness of Christ!! Now I can live as I want!! Jesus cloaks my unrepentant life!! HaaaHaaa!! And you, Mr. Loaves, can’t tell me what to do!!”

Those people are misled.

What is our garment made of? “And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints” Rev. 19:8

Now, we ARE NOT saved by works. Salvation is a gift. But that gift needs to be received. But we must, must, must (have I proven my point??) realize that our righteousness comes ONLY through Jesus Christ, enabling us, equipping us, and empowering us.

<b>BUT!! Judgment is according to our works.</b>

“I will give unto every one of you according to your works” Rev. 2
“and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works” Rev. 20

And by “Judgment” I mean when Jesus will reward everyone according to their works. I believe everyone in the Lake of Fire will be tormented eternally, “for ever and ever.” No one will escape hell. But, the degree of agony may be “according to their works.” I believe every believer will dwell in the New Jerusalem "for ever and ever." But our blessings and our position in heaven may be “according to their works.”
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Post by _Homer » Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:48 am

Paidion,

Long ago in this discussion, Roger asked for explanation of Hebrews 9:22, "and according to law almost all things are purged with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no remission." In searching through all you have written, I have not found a response. What say you?

Regarding justification you said: "it depends upon whether or not one has repented of His sin, and submitted to the authority of Christ (this normally includes baptism)." Sounds like justification is totally our work and none of Christ's. What part, if any, does Jesus play in our justification?
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Post by _Paidion » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:13 pm

Long ago in this discussion, Roger asked for explanation of Hebrews 9:22, "and according to law almost all things are purged with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no remission." In searching through all you have written, I have not found a response. What say you?
Homer, I actually thought that the answer to Roger's question could be found in my post "The Supreme Sacrifice of Jesus Christ". I did a search, and though I did refer to the expression "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin" (or "fogiveness of sins"), apparently I did not explain it in that writing.

Here as elsewhere, the author of Hebrews contrasts the covenant under the law with the new covenant under Christ:


Hebrews 9:

22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

God wanted righteousness in man right from the beginning. But when the Hebrews went so far as sacrificing to othe gods, then Yahweh gave instructions as to how to sacrifice to Him and cease sacrificing to other gods. He didn't really want sacrifice ---- He wanted obedience! But He permitted it as a concession. Indeed, He even went so far as to forgive their sins when they sacrificed, so that they could have a new start in trying to obey Yahweh. Under the Mosaic Law, blood had to be shed, and sacrifices offered to receive forgiveness.

23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with more useful sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ has entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the Holy Place yearly with blood not his own;
26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Christ's shed His precious blood on our behalf and offered a more useful sacrifice. Under the old order, God merely forgave the sin of the Israelites.
But under the new order, Christ does much more than that. He sacrificed Himself in order to begin the process of eliminating sin in His disciples. This is the reason Jesus died, as the New Testament states in several places. How much better, or more useful, is the sacrifice of Christ!
How inferior the OT sacrifices of animals.

The old order of the law versus the new order of enabling grace is also contrasted in the following passage.

The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. Acts 17:30

I'll answer you second question in my next post.

Just now (about an hour or so later), I just realized that my answer above is not complete. I think the hidden question behind the question is : "Could God have forgiven us, if Jesus hadn't shed His blood for us?"

God could have. After all He forgave the Israelites on the basis of their animal sacrifices.

However, when we see that the purpose of Christ's death was to eliminate sin from us --- to render us righteous, we will understand that when we repent and submit to Christ, entering the door of salvation and beginning to travel the path of righteousness, that God will have forgiven us for our past sin. For God will complete the good work He began in us, and will some day perfect us. For that reason, correction in Gehenna will not be necessary in the case of His disciples. Thus if Jesus had not died for us, we would be unable to walk the path of righteousness (The flesh availeth nothing). Therefore God would not forgive us, but hold us accountable for our past sins. So, yes, the sacrifice of Christ is necessary for our forgiveness. But the purpose of His sacrifice is not the forgiveness of sin, but the forsaking of sin.
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Post by _loaves » Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:01 pm

Paidion: Thanx for your clarification.

I believe your view is becoming more lucid and well-structured to us as you reason from the scriptures. Most of our confusion, I believe, is in the lack of clarification. As your position unfolds you are doing better! :)
Paidion wrote:Under the old order, God merely forgave the sin of the Israelites.
From your perspective, what was the means by which God forgave the Israelites sin in the OT? And why did God choose that method? And why did Jesus come when he did?
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Post by _Paidion » Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:23 pm

Regarding justification you said: "it depends upon whether or not one has repented of His sin, and submitted to the authority of Christ (this normally includes baptism)."
Sounds like justification is totally our work and none of Christ's.
Why does it "sound" like that to you, Homer? Is it just because in making the statement, I didn't mention Christ's sacrifice?
What part, if any, does Jesus play in our justification?
He plays a major part. He "was raised for our justification." His resurrection life within us works toward making us righteous (See second meaning of "justification").

It would be wise to first consider the two meanings of the Greek word translated as "justification".

1. Being counted as righteous.
After we repent and submit, entering the door of salvation, God counts us as righteous. Why? Because we have started down the road to complete righteousness, and God is going to finish what He has started. So in His eyes, we are righteous now, and will continue to be regarded as righteous as long as we stay on that road.

However:

Hebrews 3:14 For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end...

2. Being made righteous
Jesus died so that we might be made righteous. However, He will not make us righteous sovereignly. We must co-operate with His enabling grace.
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Post by _Homer » Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:02 pm

Paidion,

You said:
Jesus died so that we might be made righteous. However, He will not make us righteous sovereignly. We must co-operate with His enabling grace
In your system, how are we pardoned of sins we commit after "we have started down the road to complete righteousness"? On what basis? And is it necessary for us to do anything or are they automatically forgiven?
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