Gal 3:19-20 Solved by Shema informed by the deity of Christ

dizerner

Re: Gal 3:19-20 Solved by Shema informed by the deity of Christ

Post by dizerner » Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:58 pm

As I am meditating on this complex topic, I realize there are two reasons to explain the idea "God is one and there is no mediator."

1. God is promising to himself, so it excludes all other parties. Multiple parties always need a mediator.

2. God is promising to another party in a way that needs no mediator, because there are no conditions to meet.


The problem I have with #1 is it excludes human involvement and makes Abraham kind of irrelevant. We could theoretically use #1 to try to prove the divinity of Christ (not that we need it—we have an embarrassment of riches for that already). So it might be tempting to take it that way.

But God promised Abraham. Yes, his seed too, but it was directed at Abraham and certainly included Abraham. That's another party no matter how you slice the pie. Verse 16 acknowledges this directly with "Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made."

So the "God is one with no mediator comment" makes better sense as:

1. Because it is contrasting a promise without commands to a promise with conditional commands: only one party does the actions.

Rather than:

2. Because there is only one party involved, and there is no second party at all to reference, so the party is promising to itself.


Let me know your thoughts.

dizerner

Re: Gal 3:19-20 Solved by Shema informed by the deity of Christ

Post by dizerner » Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:05 pm

As I think even more upon it, both ways prove Christ's divinity.

Because for God to do "everything himself" it means that no other party is involved in fulfilling the promise.

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Re: Gal 3:19-20 Solved by Shema informed by the deity of Christ

Post by darinhouston » Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:12 pm

mikew wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:41 pm
just to be clear ... there is no theological problem that i find raised with Paul saying "but God is one." The riddle is in stating that, in the promise between two parties, that a mediator does not intervene for one party. The issue then is how Paul shares that the promise only has one party.
I guess that's not clear - frankly, I don't really understand what you're saying. As a lawyer, well familiar with covenants and promises, it really doesn't seem that difficult to me even though the greek is a bit sparse. But, you keep referring to a riddle. I don't see any riddle here - just something that requires interpretation. [by the way, hundreds of interpretations should speak against anyone with an expansive view of perspicuity]

dizerner

Re: Gal 3:19-20 Solved by Shema informed by the deity of Christ

Post by dizerner » Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:52 pm

This ties in with OT descriptions of God fulfilling his promise when all men fail:

2 Why is Your apparel red, And Your garments like one who treads in the winepress?
3 "I have trodden the winepress alone, And from the peoples no one was with Me.
For I have trodden them in My anger, And trampled them in My fury;
Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments, And I have stained all My robes.
4 For the day of vengeance is in My heart, And the year of My redeemed has come.
5 I looked, but there was no one to help, And I wondered That there was no one to uphold;
Therefore My own arm brought salvation for Me; And My own fury, it sustained Me. (Isa. 63:2-5 NKJ)


This alone proves the Deity of Christ—no was with him, this only could be said of God, for with a man, someone (God) is always with him.

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Re: Gal 3:19-20 Solved by Shema informed by the deity of Christ

Post by darinhouston » Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:00 pm

dizerner wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:52 pm
This ties in with OT descriptions of God fulfilling his promise when all men fail:

2 Why is Your apparel red, And Your garments like one who treads in the winepress?
3 "I have trodden the winepress alone, And from the peoples no one was with Me.
For I have trodden them in My anger, And trampled them in My fury;
Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments, And I have stained all My robes.
4 For the day of vengeance is in My heart, And the year of My redeemed has come.
5 I looked, but there was no one to help, And I wondered That there was no one to uphold;
Therefore My own arm brought salvation for Me; And My own fury, it sustained Me. (Isa. 63:2-5 NKJ)


This alone proves the Deity of Christ—no was with him, this only could be said of God, for with a man, someone (God) is always with him.
I guess that's another Rorschach test - I don't make that connection at all.

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Re: Gal 3:19-20 Solved by Shema informed by the deity of Christ

Post by mikew » Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:01 pm

dizerner wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:35 pm
So… if I am reading you correctly you would see the Father as promised all nations blessed to the Son particularly.

“The promise then only has one party, namely the Godhead, and thus there is no mediator possible between God the Father and Christ the Son.”

I think… I could agree with that much.

It would be difficult to exclude Abraham entirely from the parties in the promise, although I understand the metaphor of God "doing it all" with Abraham asleep.

The Law is symbolic and tutoring and not salvific—definitely the end conclusion of Galatians, no doubt.
Right. Abraham drops out because he is asleep by the first century. Also Abraham was used when Paul made a point about Abe's inheritance. But now, verse 19 speaks of Jesus as the promisee. The topic of verse 20 is the law vs. the promise.

Paul mentions the mediator in verse 19 both to introduce the topic of a mediator and to imply the fact that the law had two parties.

Then in verse 20, Paul says "but the mediator is not of one." Okay. that is an obvious statement based on the definition of a mediator. Why does Paul treat this like a contradiction? It is a contradiction when the audience finds that Paul is saying the promise does not have two parties anymore but only one.

We pair up the mediation of the law which has two parties with the promise which has two parties (if we retire Abraham). But Paul says there is one party in the promise. He actually says a mediator cannot work where there is only one party. Paul then reinforces the idea that there is only one party when he says "But God is one." The Galatians have to realize that there are normally two parties in the promise but now there is one. The only way for the shema to convey that is that two persons appear in the Godhead who is one.
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Re: Gal 3:19-20 Solved by Shema informed by the deity of Christ

Post by mikew » Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:11 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:12 pm
mikew wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:41 pm
just to be clear ... there is no theological problem that i find raised with Paul saying "but God is one." The riddle is in stating that, in the promise between two parties, that a mediator does not intervene for one party. The issue then is how Paul shares that the promise only has one party.
I guess that's not clear - frankly, I don't really understand what you're saying. As a lawyer, well familiar with covenants and promises, it really doesn't seem that difficult to me even though the greek is a bit sparse. But, you keep referring to a riddle. I don't see any riddle here - just something that requires interpretation. [by the way, hundreds of interpretations should speak against anyone with an expansive view of perspicuity]
I was discussing this summary paper with the leader of our bible study. He basically said the bible is not so hard to understand. That point surprised me since we have a bunch of scripture that has unclear meaning. How does anyone find Isaiah easy to understand? And the proverb mentions about the king searching deeply for the meaning--Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.”

I still find that all people can benefit from studying the bible, but there are details that are hard to figure out.
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dizerner

Re: Gal 3:19-20 Solved by Shema informed by the deity of Christ

Post by dizerner » Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:21 pm

mikew wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:11 pm
I still find that all people can benefit from studying the bible, but there are details that are hard to figure out.
I think it's both/and.

There are simple things you can immediately grasp, and nuances that take a lifetime to uncover.

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Re: Gal 3:19-20 Solved by Shema informed by the deity of Christ

Post by mikew » Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:31 pm

dizerner wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:58 pm
As I am meditating on this complex topic, I realize there are two reasons to explain the idea "God is one and there is no mediator."

1. God is promising to himself, so it excludes all other parties. Multiple parties always need a mediator.
...
The problem I have with #1 is it excludes human involvement and makes Abraham kind of irrelevant. We could theoretically use #1 to try to prove the divinity of Christ (not that we need it—we have an embarrassment of riches for that already). So it might be tempting to take it that way.
...
I do not use verse 20 to show the deity of Christ. Instead, we must realize that the Galatians knew the deity of Christ (For example of Gal 1:1 as mentioning God the Father and verse 16 mentioning Christ Jesus the son. Also "Christ" would be a title that now carries with it his deity. Then 3:16 is the promise also to Christ, who must exist to be a recipient -- as Jesus said "before Abraham was I am." ) Paul could simply have explained to them that the understanding of the shema is adapted to include Christ.

Abraham was critical. Paul's approach is rather complex to describe. Paul writes in many layers. In a simplification, Paul has emphasized Jesus as the seed in order to make his argument in vv 19-20.

So we are back to God making the promise to Jesus -- a promise from the Father to the Son in the Godhead.
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Re: Gal 3:19-20 Solved by Shema informed by the deity of Christ

Post by mikew » Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:33 pm

dizerner wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:21 pm
mikew wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:11 pm
I still find that all people can benefit from studying the bible, but there are details that are hard to figure out.
I think it's both/and.

There are simple things you can immediately grasp, and nuances that take a lifetime to uncover.
I thought I said that :lol:
I could put it this way -- often people misread the actual message but they come out with a message that is still helpful to know God
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