The Fate of the Lost — A Fourth View?

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mattrose
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Re: The Fate of the Lost — A Fourth View?

Post by mattrose » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:34 pm

Paidion wrote:Charles' position is that, though reconciled, they will be banished forever from the presence of Christ and the saints. That position is contrary to that of ANY universalist.
Indeed, the only part of his theory that is somewhat unique is the weakest part of the theory, in my opinion. Reconciled but banished? Saved FROM wrath but not saved TO anything?

To me, it's a merger of eternal torment and universal reconciliation. Indeed, it is seemingly exactly half-way between those two views in that it posits a group of people that aren't in torment but also aren't in glory. They are in a worse state that heaven, but not as bad a state as hell. It is almost the dictionary definition of a merger b/w those 2 views.

It may be more common, when attempting to merge these 2 views, to theorize everlasting torment going on alongside the possibility for full reconciliation (thus affirming the reality of both of the views). He has simply found a more creative way to merge them that attempts to avoid being labeled in a particular camp.

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Perry
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Re: The Fate of the Lost — A Fourth View?

Post by Perry » Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:02 pm

Paidion wrote: ... his position that those who die without Christ will be eternally separated from Him ...
For what it's worth, this came up at GCS when I was there. Someone asked the question, (I think it may have been Steve), "How can anyone exist in complete separation from Christ?" This seems to me to be a legitimate question. How does that work? How is it possible to exist completely apart from Christ? How can you even have an environment in which to exist completely separate from Christ? Is that even possible?

Also, and I admit I didn't read the lengthy article, this view sounds a bit like the Morman view of the afterlife. It might be interesting to have mkprr join in, but, as I understand it, they view the afterlife as having three levels of glory each with an increasing degree of communion with God and the saints. There's a terrestrial level, a telestial level, and a celestial. It all seems a bit convoluted to me...

steve7150
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Re: The Fate of the Lost — A Fourth View?

Post by steve7150 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:08 am

It's God's will that everyone should be saved and none should perish, yet many in fact the great majority will be reconciled but not saved even though they are not God's enemy any more?
That's contrary to God's will and his character and his purposes. Otherwise it makes perfect sense.

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Homer
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Re: The Fate of the Lost — A Fourth View?

Post by Homer » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:48 am

Hi Perry,

You wrote:
How is it possible to exist completely apart from Christ? How can you even have an environment in which to exist completely separate from Christ? Is that even possible?
Aren't a great many existing now though they are separated from Christ? Or are they joined to Him in some way?

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Paidion
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Re: The Fate of the Lost — A Fourth View?

Post by Paidion » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:21 pm

Singalphile wrote:Okay, last question (for now :)): Does he actually say this somewhere in that article or is that something you got from him from another source? I'm beginning to question my reading comprehension skills.
No, he does not use the words "They will be banished forever from the presence of Christ and the saints" in the article. What he says is that they will not be saved. Nevertheless I think he believes that. I put it that way in order to make clear that his is not a universalist position as some of you who posted to this thread thought.

Charles spoke about the reconciliation of all to God years ago at a Christian Camp in Minnesota. He taught the same things as in the article — that Christ's enemies would be reconciled to Him and cease to be enemies. At that time, I thought, like some of you, that He believed that all would eventually be saved. I visited him in his cabin and discussed these things with him. He assured me that this didn't mean they would be saved. Interestingly, even Art Katz (a.k.a. Aaron Katz), who ministered along with Charles at that camp, thought that Charles was a universalist (Art definitely wasn't).

When I emailed Charles to ask permission to contribute his article to forums he graciously granted it. In the same email I asked him about the status of the lost. Here is the way I put it:
By the way, I know you believe that the lost will be reconciled to God. But often I have wondered how you think they will spend eternity. Or do you consider that to be simply as one of the mysteries which we can never know” (At least in this life).
In his reply, Charles didn't address my question.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Perry
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Re: The Fate of the Lost — A Fourth View?

Post by Perry » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:46 pm

Homer wrote: Aren't a great many existing now though they are separated from Christ? Or are they joined to Him in some way?
Hi Homer,
I would say that they are indeed joined in some way, whether they acknowledge it or not. The rain falls on the just and the unjust. The physical universe exists because of God. Without it, no one could exist. It is by God's grace, that there is food that's edible, water to drink, and shelter from the storms. These good benefits are enjoyed, in one degree or another, by all.

Can you think if any benefit enjoyed by a living being that can't be traced by to the grace, and mercy of God? Every good and perfect gift comes from Him.

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