christians staying away from church

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_glow
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christians staying away from church

Post by _glow » Sat Aug 14, 2004 2:54 pm

I debated whether to bring this subject up if it was to taboo..... plus this board is starting to look to me like it is more of a discussion on head knowlege among Chrsitian men vs getting down to basic day by day struggles folks deal with on this planet with more open compassion,NOT that that is a bad thing . There is certainly a place for it but the title led me to believe it was a family forum for support. ah maybe it's because I am a woman too and we seem to be tied to the more emotional side of the coin Not sure?I also don't mean that in a sarcastic way either. I am sorry if I am coming across judgemental. I don't mean to be I am just trying to integrate alot of what I am reading here and answers from some folks vs no answers or replys at all. I once again today talked to another believer who told me that they don't want to attend church regularly or join because they feel like they( churches) are so hypocritical in the sense of using Gods work with judgement. Also many of their kids who were raised in these churches say they have "no need" for them because they don't see or experience love and compassion in action. My kids being included, even now that they are adults. Not that we can't see "some" of someones fruits or given a window to see into some ones walk but I mean used in a way that seems to condem and put down. I don't mean holy spirit conviction either. Aren't we "all" sinners only accepted into a right relationship again with God because of what HE did for us not what WE did? Are we not constantly now in a state of Sanctification because of the Holy Spirit working on our lives to clean it up under His Grace? Isn't everything we do after surrendering our spirit/ independant will to Christ cleaned up by him (sactified), in constant refining til we die and meet him face to face?If so why do we use scripture to block ourselves off from sinners "outside" of the fold (unsaved) and those saved but are struggling with sin, especially those whos sin may be more blatant than other sins , more obvious to those not involved in it. To basically cast them out. If not physically by not seeing them or by closing them off in communications etc. I think it is wrong. It seems to me, even though it is very hard to not be tempted by anothers sin, especially if it is inviting...We should stand by them, not judge them (I don't mean we cant' voice our opinion if we feel the need or they ask) but not forsake them and turn our back on them. I am getting so bummed out with the Christian community when I keep hearing story after story from fellow Christians who are struggling and feel all they are getting from their local church or even open forums like this is basically scripture sent to them and thats that. No warm embrace, no uplifting side by side walking with them. But basicaly, here is Gods word and heres the door.............. whether done intentionally or by lack of returning a call or letter extra. I just can't imagine Christ doing that . Basicallly come back when you agree with me or you "look" better to the congregation etc. I myself have been burned by Christians and non. I have been bitter and had to really dig down for help to forgive a few fellow folks on this planet and certainly I am a sinner. Whether intentially or not. I THANK GOD He has cleaned me white as snow........I could NEVER do it OR continue too. I have a mother that has OCD (constant repeating of behaviors) She was raised Catholic at a time when you basically could never repent enough. She spends her days in torment at times trying to cover all the sins she feels she has chocked up for the day and asks Gods forgiveness and through her Priest when she can. She loves God understands basically what Christ has done for her but because of this apparent mental issue and her catholic upbringing and fellow catholic judgements she is rarely at peace with it. Isn't that an unending quest when we can NEVER do it that way( by repenting only) only GOD can wash our sins away NOT US! So why as Christians do we point the finger at others sins whether meekly or boldly and judge them whether they will be our friends , let into our churches etc. etc. I don't support the sins I at least clearly know of as best I can but I also am not walking in anothers shoes so who am I to judge if one (sin) seems so clear and easy for me to avoid but a constant struggle for some one else. One (sin) is "not so bad" that I won't stop talking to them but "oh, that one , well that one is SO bad I don't want to even let others know, I know you. I have not had alot of reason for being involved in a deep walk side by side conviction to join a local church in the last couple of years . It seems like I just can't stomach it anymore and I know I am sinning in there some where and continue to seek Gods light on it. I still go, I need to hear the word and connect with "my family" . One of the reasons I DO reach out on this site even though I can't spew out scriptures or where they come from etc. like alot of you, I am a woman. I still love the Lord with all my heart and am still a continual sinner saved and kept washed only by HIS blood and love for me. He accepts me as I am , and I believe he also accepts and continues to wash all of us daily that know him. Why do we keep pointing fingers at some like they are "less than" ???? I am SO sad that I keep hearing this over and over from so many fellow Christians that are struggling. SO they stay out side of the church instead of in.
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_Steve
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Post by _Steve » Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:12 am

Hi Glow,
Probably most of us have found the same reasons to be discouraged about churches as those you mention. It may help to realize that the flaws you mention in the churches are really just another case of flaws in people (since the behavior of "churches" is really just the behavior of people in them).

As we all feel that "churches" (that is, "people") should recognize that we are all flawed and should, especially, extend grace and acceptance toward our own particular imperfections—we must also remember that their failure to do just that may be one of their imperfections that we are called upon to overlook or extend grace for. If we complain that church people (because of their immaturity) are too judgmental toward, let us say, other Christians who smoke dope, or who fall into fornication, or who neglect church, etc., then we are saying that they should not criticize one group of sins, while we are judging them for another kind of sin (their tendency to be hyper-critical), which may be their particular weakness. Thus we are showing an intolerance very much like their own—only about different sins.

We will never be able to force others to be more gracious. We can only require that of ourselves. Our decision to be gracious, even toward those who judge us, may be the only contribution we can make to improving the overall situation that you have observed in the church. We can't reduce the total amount of criticism in the church by criticizing the criticizers.

Before we become disillusioned with the church, or with any company, we should realize that most relationships are injured by offenses being taken...not by offenses being given. A person may act in an offensive way toward me (that is, give an offense), but if I do not choose to take offense, then there need be no breach in the relationship. By not taking offense, I mean by extending grace, by seeking to understand what struggles may incline that person to act so abrasively, and by forgiving (sometimes after a meek-spirited confrontation—Gal.6:1).

Most offenses are taken by persons who had expectations that the other person failed to fulfill. Too often, the latter person was not even aware that such expectations existed, which is why he/she did not fulfill them. When we are offended, we ought to ask ourselves, "What was I expecting this person to do differently?" Follow that question with, "Did I have any right to expect this of them?" and "Did they know (did I inform them) that I expected this from them?" If the answer to these last two questions is "No," then it is we who are being intolerant, not the other person.

If people judge and criticize us, we must realize that it is because we have failed to meet their expectations (e.g., they expected us to dress differently, or to meet with their description of being more "sanctified," or to be more outgoing, etc.—essentially, they expected us to be more "like them"). In some cases, they may have had no right to expect so much of us, and they may be at fault in judging us too harshly.

On the other hand, this will not offend us greatly unless we also had our own expectations of them—namely that they would be more flexible, more charitable, more open-minded...in a word, more "like us"). You see, we might have no more reason to require them to be like us than they have to require us to be like them. In fact, our own willingness to embrace all for whom Christ died, realizing that none are really expected to be quite like us or to meet with our demands, is the only thing that will change the lamentable circumstance in the church, which you so accurately describe.

I, too, am critical of many of the imperfections of the churches. I consider, however, that the churches, like myself, must stand under God's correction and meet His expectations, not mine. I do expect better things, especially of the church leaders, who have more obligation than most to follow, and to teach others to follow, the word of God and to love one another. But even the failure in this on the part of many pastors (if the truth were known) may be due to "blind spots" imposed by their training or cultural conditioning. There is a place for our bringing correction, if we think we see their duty more clearly than do they, but it is not appropriate to write them off, unless we have solid evidence that they are wolves, and not sheep.

As for this forum, as you said, you might have had different expectations for it than others have. It seems that you are disappointed that it is not being used more as sort of a chat room for general fellowship. I am sure those forums do exist, though I don't know that that is what most of our participants have sought here (I may be wrong, because I don't know what everyone else thinks). The section in which we are having this discussion is primarily a forum where people can post their questions about biblical subjects and can either get an answer or (at least) dialog about their topics. If it seems like a "head knowledge" kind of discussion, it may be because the topics tend to be the kind that can best be answered with "information"—though you will still find expressions of feeling and sympathy here as well.

God bless you. With reference to unexpected midlife singleness, there are actually others here who are going through much the same struggle as that which you are experiencing.
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In Jesus,
Steve

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_glow
Posts: 179
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 5:28 pm
Location: wi.

away from church

Post by _glow » Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:49 am

Hi Steve Thanks for your gracious information. I can't say I disagree with any of it. Is is good to have communications such as this and Christian chat rooms I suppose. I have not been on a chat room that I know of , for many reasons I have tended to avoid them. It seems like it is such a fine line when it comes to expectations and critisizing. Those seems to be the main issues myself and basically all folks I know are struggling with. We are continually working on sorting it all out etc. I wish (hah) I could just magically exude the Love God is capable of extending in his perfect way "all the time" but as usual , I continually fall short. But I won't give up and I am glad it appears those here, like yourself won't either. God bless Glow.
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