Sean wrote:Sleep could simply refer to the fact that the dead will one day rise again. It would seem that since "sleeping" resembles death because the person is not moving, but rather the person sleeping eventually does awaken is meant to show that death is only temporary.
These statements do not differ much from my beliefs --- unless you think the dead person is in a kind of state of suspended animation until the resurrection. I believe the dead are dead, and will stay dead, until God raises them again.
As for the cloud of witnesses, no they would not be sleeping.
Why not?
The term Jesus used for sleep seems to refer to the state of the body, and does not necessarily carry on to any non-physical aspect of a person that lives on after the death of the body.
Why do you think that? The body isn't asleep. It's dead. And it rots. But Jesus used the term word with reference to dead people sometimes because He was going to bring them back to life again.
So I don't see the use of the term sleep to contradict Heb 12:1 or the souls under the alter in Revelation crying out for God to avenge their deaths since, as you mentioned, sleep is not an unconcious state, but a temporary physical state of the body. The mind is still active during sleep.
That is true of natural sleep. But it wasn't true of me during surgery. I looked at the clock; it was 1 P.M. I
immediately (from my point of view) looked at it again, and it was 2:30 P.M. Two and a half hours of unconsciousness and unawareness.
As for "the souls under the alter in Revelation crying out for God to avenge their deaths", this is what John saw in his vision, not a description of a literal reality. It reminds me a bit of what Yahweh said to Cain about Abel, "The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground."
Somehow that doesn't seem much like a literal statement about Abel's blood.
Seems like a strange conclusion to draw. Since those spoken of as dead have "body parts" then why bodily resurrection? Because they don't have physical body parts.
Cherubium have "body parts" too but aren't physical. Angels have body parts, but aren't physical. This is typical figures of speech used to describe what would otherwise be completely indescribable, IMO.
What's the difference if they don't have "physical body parts"? How do physical body parts add anything to them? The Father is spirit, and has no physical body parts, and He is complete.
Besides, the resurrection body is not physical anyway.
Paul said:
So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. I Corinthians 15:42-45
Even Jesus' body was not a physical body. He went through a locked door. He suddenly appeared at various places. At his ascension, He went up into the sky ( a physical body could not tolerate the change in pressure.
Yes, he ate food with His disciples after His resurrection, and showed Thomas the wounds of His resurrection. I suspect that it was the "same" body, but a
changed body ---- changed from a mortal body to an immortal. In Paul's description of the resurrectin, he stated that this change will happen, not only to those who are raised from the dead, but to those who will be alive at the time of Christ's return:
Lo! I tell you a secret. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. I Corinthians 15:51,52
Jesus also said:
John 11:26
and whoever lives and believes in me will never die.
Did He say that? If He did, He contradicted the first part of the statement as recorded in verse 25:
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live...
Here He clearly speaks of people who believe in Him and
do die!
But if that happens.... "yet shall they live!" Such people will be raised to life again!
So what does Jesus actually say in the last part of the statement. Literally it is:
Every one who lives and believes in me shall not die into the age.
To continue in a state of death into the next age is to remain dead. But at the beginning of the next age, Jesus will return.
All who live and believe in Him will not stay dead, but will be raised at the beginning of the next age when Jesus returns.
Also, why did Paul make this statement:
2 Corinthians 12:2
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.
Why would Paul mention this as an option, if he knew there was no such thing as existance outside the body?
Paul was having a spiritual experience. Today, many claim to have an "out of the body experience". I think they are in a special state of mind. Paul couldn't tell whether he was in the body or out of the body. Why not?--- if he were really out of the body. I think Paul was describing how he felt when he had this vision or spiritual experience.
Also, where is Enoch?
Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
He was alive and God "took" him. Took him where? He didn't die, but is with the Lord. But the resurrection has not yet occured yet. So what are we to make of it?
Some of the early Christian writers said that Enoch truly didn't die. That is, God took him somewhere (we are not told where), and he is still alive in his physical body. According to these early Christians, the complete Jonah is being miraculously being preserved in his physical body by God.
I am inclined to think that this is the case.
