The Supreme Sacrifice of Jesus Christ

[Guest]

The guest was me.....sorry ....I forgot to log on.

[Guest]

Roger: I forget to log on lots of times. Then I go whining to moderator Steve, and he fixes me up sometimes.

Paidion: Where art thou? Not to rush your writing or anything, but lets have chap. 2, please.

loaves

[Guest]

There is no doubt that Israel offered appeasing sacrifices to Yahweh. But Yahweh didn't want them!

Psalms 40:6 Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; My ears You have opened [literally, "You have dug ears for me."]; Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.

Isaiah 1:10-20 Hear the word of Yahweh, You rulers of Sodom; Give ear to the instruction of our God, You people of Gomorrah. What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?" Says Yahweh. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle; And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats. When you come to appear before Me, Who requires of you this trampling of My courts? Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me. New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies— I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts, They have become a burden to Me; I am weary of bearing them. So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; Yes, even though you multiply prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood. Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, defend the orphan, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together," Says Yahweh, "Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool. If you consent and obey, You will eat the best of the land; But if you refuse and rebel, You will be devoured by the sword." Truly, the mouth of Yahweh has spoken.

So Yahweh didn't want appeasing sacrifices. The Hebrews learned to offer them from the other nations. Yahweh wanted righteousness. He accepted these sacrifices as a concession, and then overlooked their sin. But it wasn't His will. He wanted obedience. Now since the Messiah has come, God no longer overlooks sin.

Acts 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Jesus' sacrifice was not an appeasing sacrifice to God. The Father sacrificed His Son on our behalf. Jesus sacrificed Himself to God for our benefit. But His sacrifice was not an appeasing sacrifice. It was in the order of Romans 12:1 "Present your bodies as a living sacrifice, which is your rational worship."

While I agree with much of your original post (It's quite refreshing to see people actually get the fact that obedience is important) I'm puzzeled over Jesus not being a sacrifice.

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

and

Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 13:11 For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy places by the high priest as a sacrifice for sin are burned outside the camp.
Heb 13:12 So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood.

Seem to say otherwise.

Heb 10:3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sin every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me;
Heb 10:6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'"
Heb 10:8 When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law),
Heb 10:9 then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He abolishes the first in order to establish the second.
Heb 10:10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Seem to say that although sacrifices required by law did not remove sin, they were a reminder of sin. And that Christ's sacrifice did remove sin.

Maybe I just don't understand the point you are trying to make.

[Guest]

Paidion,

If I understand you correctly, you are saying simply that repentence is a requirement of salvation - only believing and saying a simple prayer will not save you. You are saying that God requires a change in our lives.

You also say that the purpose for Christ's sacrifice is to do away with sin.

Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Are you saying that this is accomplished through the changed lives of the saints? or will He completely remove sin from existence at some point?

Todd

[Guest]

Je suis ici, mon ami.

I've been rather occupied with many things lately.

I want to make clear that I believe wholeheartedly in Jesus' sacrifice on our behalf on Calvary's tree. I think I made this plain in the posted Chapter 1. If I didn't believe it, I would hardly call the proposed book
The Supreme Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

I do believe that Christ died for our benefit, in order to give us the enabling grace to overcome sin, and to live righteous lives before our maker. When one repents and is baptized and submits to the authority of Christ, he is regenerated.

I do not believe that Christ died as a substitute for us so that God is blinded to our sin choices so that when he looks at us He cannot see our sin, but only Christ's righteousness.

I do believe that Jesus died to deliver us from sin.

I do not believe that Jesus died that we might be forgiven of our sin.
I do not believe that Jesus died, primarily, to deliver us from hell.

I do believe that the Father sacrificed His Son for our benefit.
I do believe that Jesus sacrificed Himself for our benefit.

I do not believe that Jesus sacrificed Himself to God as a means of appeasing Him, so that God would not send us to hell.

I hope to soon share with you Chapter 2, entitled The Means of Mercy. This chapter deals with "atonement" and the Greek words which have beens translated as "atoning sacrifice", "propitiation", and "expiation."

[Guest]

Paidion,

Romans 8:13-14: "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God."

Precisely how does Jesus' death on the cross enable us to overcome sin? Is it only partially effective and the Holy Spirit plus our own effort accomplish the rest? How was Job "blameless and upright" prior to Jesus' sacrifice? And how were Zacharias and Elizabeth "righteous and blameless? If they could do it potentially anyone else could.

If Jesus is the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world", according to your view He isn't a very effective sacrifice for "we all stumble in many ways". In my view, He atoned for our sins, we are credited with His righteousness if we trust in Him and the efficacy of His death for us. In this, His sacrifice was 100% effective.

Blessings, Homer

[Guest]

Hi Paidion,

I can agree with much of what you said. But one thing I fail to see your justification for is:

I do not believe that Jesus died that we might be forgiven of our sin.

I don't see how you get around passages like:

Col 1:12-14
13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
NKJV

Eph 1:6-7
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins
NKJV

Acts 5:30-32
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. 31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
NKJV

Acts 13:38-39
38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
NKJV


Jesus told Paul:

Acts 26:17-18
17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'
NKJV


I suspect you will give me the alternate definition for "forgiveness" in the Greek, but I don't see how God can execute justice without our past sins being atoned for somehow. If Jesus didn't pay for those sins at the cross, who will?

[Guest]

Had to take "time out" to check aphesis in the NIV Theological Dictionary. The word can mean release, pardon, cancellation, or forgiveness. It notes the word "occurs 17x in the NT of which 15 have the sense of forgiveness, and 2 release from captivity". It would seem the burden of proof is on Paidion.

Regarding the quoted passage in Isaiah 1:10-20 I don't see it is proof at all that God did not require sacrifices but rather a statement of what God preferred. Otherwise, why did God give elaborate instructions regarding the sacrifices? If He did not require them, why did He care? To me it is like a father telling a child he doesn't desire to punish the child but rather have the child do what is right in the first place.

[Guest]

In Isaiah, in one of the famous Messianic OT passages we read (I’m using KJV):

Isaiah 53:10-11 “Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.”

loaves

[Guest]

Had to take "time out" to check aphesis in the NIV Theological Dictionary. The word can mean release, pardon, cancellation, or forgiveness. It notes the word "occurs 17x in the NT of which 15 have the sense of forgiveness, and 2 release from captivity". It would seem the burden of proof is on Paidion.

Those 15 out of 17 occurrences of the Greek word "aphesis" have indeed been translated as "forgiveness" in many versions. That does not prove that the meaning of the word is "forgiveness."

The verbal form of the word "aphesis" is "aphiāmi". Etymologically, the word "aphiāmi" has been formed from the prefix "apo" (from), and from the root word "hiāmi". The word "hiāmi" is an intensive form of the word "eimi" meaning "to go". The intesified form may also have meant "to send" Thus the primary meaning of the word "aphiāmi" is "to go from" or "to depart" or "to leave." But it is thought that it might also have been "to send away" or "to dismiss". The uncertainty about the primary meaning accounts for the fact that some translations have Jesus dismissing or sending away the crowds:

Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. (NKJV)
Matthew 13:36 Then, having dismissed the crowds, he went into the house. (Darby)

and others have Him leaving the crowds:

Matthew 13:36 Then He left the crowds and went into the house. (NASB)
Matthew 13:36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. (NRSV)

The word occurs 131 times in the New Testament. I will restrict my quotes to the gospel of Matthew to give a sampling of the use of the word there.The Strong's number for "aphiāmi" is 863. It is used in its primary sense of "leave" in 19 verses in Matthew. All quotes are from the NASB:

1. Primary Meaning: Go from, Leave, Depart

Matthew 4:11 Then the devil *left <863> Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.
Matthew 4:20 Immediately they left <863> their nets and followed Him.
Matthew 4:22 Immediately they left <863> the boat and their father, and followed Him.
Matthew 5:24 leave <863> your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering.
Matthew 8:15 He touched her hand, and the fever left <863> her; and she got up and waited on Him.
Matthew 13:36 Then He left <863> the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."
Matthew 18:12 "What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave <863> the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying?
Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, "Let <863> the children alone <863>, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
Matthew 19:27 Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left <863> everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?"
Matthew 19:29 "And everyone who has left <863> houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.
Matthew 22:22 And hearing this, they were amazed, and leaving <863> Him, they went away.
Matthew 22:25 "Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no children left <863> his wife to his brother.
Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected <863> the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting <863> the others.
Matthew 23:38 "Behold, your house is being left <863> to you desolate!
Matthew 24:2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left <863> upon another, which will not be torn down."
Matthew 24:40 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left <863>.
Matthew 24:41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left <863>.
Matthew 26:44 And He left <863> them again, and went away and prayed a third time, saying the same thing once more.
Matthew 26:56 "But all this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures of the prophets." Then all the disciples left <863> Him and fled.

The NASB translates the word as "divorce" in the following passage.

1 Corinthians 7:12 But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce <863> her.

But in view of the basic meaning, should it not be translated "he must not leave her"?

Strangely enough, the NASB translates very the same word in the very next verse as "send away". Again could it not be "she must not leave her husband"?

1 Corinthians 7:13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send <863> her husband away <863>.

However, it seems that the basic meaning may have been "send away" or "dismiss" as well as "leave" or "depart".

The word "aphiāmi" is also used to mean "permit" or "allow". At first sight, this seems to be a quite different meaning from the root meaning. Yet, even in English, the phrase "I gave him leave" is used for "I gave him permission" (although it is becoming a bit archaic). There are 7 verses in Matthew in which "aphiāmi" has this meaning:

2. The meaning of "permit" or "allow" :

Matthew 3:15 But Jesus answering said to him, "Permit <863> it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he *permitted <863> Him.
Matthew 5:40 "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let <863> him have <863> your coat also.

Matthew 7:4 "Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let <863> me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?
Matthew 8:22 But Jesus *said to him, "Follow Me, and allow <863> the dead to bury their own dead."
Matthew 13:30 ‘Allow <863> both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."’"
Matthew 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow <863> those who are entering to go in.
Matthew 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded <863> up His spirit.

There is no doubt that "aphiāmi" sometimes means "forgive". One of common understanding of forgiveness in our day is the act of letting go of our ill feelings for others. So in forgiving someone in this sense we "leave our ill feelings behind". The root meaning of "aphiāmi", that is, "leave", is consistent with this act.

However, this does not seem to be the meaning of "forgive" as we find it in the New Testament. For if it were, then when God forgives someone, He would be "letting go of His ill feelings." I doubt that God has "ill feelings", at least in the sense that we have them.

I think that biblical forgiveness is a response to repentance. Jesus said that if your brother sins against you seven times in a day, and says, "I repent", then forgive him." You can and should let go of any ill feelings you may have had toward a person. But if the person hasn't repented, you may still not want to go out to dinner with him. For you will be unable to trust him in his unrepentant state. But if the person has repented, and you grant him true forgiveness, then it's just as if he had never wronged you. Whatever he has done to you will never be brought up again, and, yes, you would be glad to have dinner with him. In time, you may not even remember what he had done to you. In this true forgiveness, you have not only left behind your ill feelings, but you have dismissed, or sent away, all obligations this person has toward you to atone for the actions he has committed against you. If a person is in debt to you, and your forgive that debt, he is under no obligation to repay you.

3. The the meaning of "forgive"[/b]

Matthew 6:12 ‘And forgive <863> us our debts, as we also have forgiven <863> our debtors.
Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive <863> others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive <863> you.
Matthew 6:15 "But if you do not forgive <863> others, then your Father will not forgive <863> your transgressions.
Matthew 9:2 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven <863>."
Matthew 9:5 "Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven <863>,’ or to say, ‘Get up, and walk’?
Matthew 9:6 "But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive <863> sins"-then He *said to the paralytic, "Get up, pick up your bed and go home."
Matthew 12:31 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven <863> people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven <863>.
Matthew 12:32 "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven <863> him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven <863> him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive <863> him? Up to seven times?"
Matthew 18:27 "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave <863> him the debt.
Matthew 18:32 "Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave <863> you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
Matthew 18:35 "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive <863> his brother from your heart."

In these last 12 verses, there is no doubt in my mind that the meaning of "aphiāmi" is "forgive". But notice verse 9:2. Jesus said to the paralytic, "...your sins are forgiven". Jesus hadn't died yet. So forgiveness of sin was possible without His death. Thus his death could not have been for the purpose of forgiveness of sins. This, of course, is exactly the same reasoning, which someone gave, in disputing my statement that Jesus died to enable us to overcome sin.

As I see it, one should first of all attempt to translate "aphi~mi" in accordance to its basic meaning unless one is compelled by context to take "aphiāmi" as meaning "forgive". I think the same holds true of "aphesis". Just as the word means "release", or "freeing" in this verse...

Luke 4:18 "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE <859> TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE <859> THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED.

... so it may mean in each of the other 15 instances of the use of the word in the New Testament.
If you try translating it as such, I think you will find that it fits each and every case.

Indeed, there is reason for it NOT to be translated as "forgiveness" in the following:

Mark 1:4 John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the aphesis of sins.

Now if you read the rest of the account in verses 5-8, you will find that what John the Baptist spoke had no reference whatever to the forgivess of sins. Better yet, read the fuller account of what John the Baptist preached in Matthew 3:1-12. He preached repentance and the Kingdom of God. People confessed their sins and were baptized by him. He exhorted people to bear fruit that fits repentance, and gave specific instructions as how this could be done. But he didn't say a word about repentance
I conclude then that we should attempt to first translate "aphesis" in accordance to its root meaning.

Mark 1:4 John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forsaking of of sins.

Or perhaps "the release from sins."

Either of these would harmonize with the rest of what John the Baptizer actually said.