The Narrow Path Ministries • The Naked Gospel (new book)

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The Naked Gospel (new book)

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:48 pm

by darinhouston

Anyone see this?

http://today.ttu.edu/2009/09/the-naked-gospel/

Re: The Naked Gospel (new book)

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:44 pm

by Michelle

It sounds interesting. Have you read it?

Re: The Naked Gospel (new book)

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:35 pm

by darinhouston

No -- this was my impression from reading the article (responding to the friend who sent it to me).

Could be an interesting read -- from the article, I'd at least have to say a hearty AMEN to the basic premise and have no shock at all in most of the points highlighted in the article, though I certainly disagree with part of it (or at least the rationale).

Language indeed matters, and I agree with the premise that we're so inclined to "religion" that we generally hold adherence to our favorite Christianistic tenets and phrases and notions (and even view of the institutional church) above the actual simple (though hard) spiritual Truths that Jesus brought to us.

I happen to agree that OT tithing, 10 Commandments (per se), and ceremonial laws are no longer applicable to the Christian.

I strongly disagree (as does Scripture) with the notion that we don't need to ask forgiveness -- that's hardly a new concept, though, and stems I believe from a particular form of ultra-dispensationalism.

As to the 10 Commandments, I would actually agree with the conclusion but might disagree a bit with the logic (it's hard to tell where he's coming from in the article but it does hint at my position). I personally think they don't "apply" anymore not because Jesus "did it all" and "that's that," (as some have suggested) but instead because the greater commandments Christ brought subsume the moral laws to which the Old Testament was but a shadow and because the Spirit enables us to do far deeper what the moral commands in the 10 Commandments only hinted at. Basically, if we live through the Spirit according to Christ's teachings, then the 10 Commandments are taken care of as a result, and were elaborated on by Christ in his Sermon on the Mount and elsewhere. The ceremonial aspects of the law (including some of the 10 Commandments) are indeed fulfilled completely in Christ and wholly irrelevant other than understanding aspects of God and Christ's character in their fulfillment, but the moral laws are fulfilled by Christ "in" and "through" us.

I sure wish clean "thinking" naturally leads to clean living, but I think it must be more intentional/purposeful than that (striving to continually walk in the Spirit to equip our intentions and guide those intentional steps), and the NT is full of warnings to guard against such a notion that we can just "think good thoughts." That is why I'm so excited about the study on the Sermon on the Mount and hope that we get more interest.

In general, it sounds like he's "heading the right direction," but it sounds a bit simplistic (and perhaps just a bit naive and ignorant) -- as to the tithe, I agree again with the "conclusion" and he's "close" but "oh so far away" on the rationale. Historically, the tithe was simply ceremonial and designed specifically to support the Levitical system which was not only done away with, but which was also crushed as the Lord came in judgment against Jerusalem and destroyed (as predicted) the sustained Temple system in AD70. The Levites were to get a share of the bounty to support the temple and temple worship primarily because they were the tribe not given a land portion but were instead dedicated to Temple service. Some say the "church" is the modern equivalent of the Temple, but it's more like the synagogue, not the Temple. Individual people of the Body of Christ (collectively) are now the corollary fulfillment of the Temple, not institutions or buildings. I also don't agree that we are to just give according to what we "want," but that we are to be consciously and truly aware in our hearts and minds that it all belongs to God and that we are but stewards and to truly be "willing" when called on by circumstances and the Lord's leading to give any amount that is loving as needed and according to the leading of the Spirit -- that's not exactly the same thing as "giving according to my wants." That notion actually betrays a leaning towards "easy grace" instead of a spiritual life being led by Christ's teachings and the Holy Spirit's leading.

Re: The Naked Gospel (new book)

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:24 am

by SteveF

Darin wrote

I strongly disagree (as does Scripture) with the notion that we don't need to ask forgiveness -- that's hardly a new concept, though, and stems I believe from a particular form of ultra-dispensationalism.

I'm in agreement with you Darin. I would like to hear him flesh out this point though.

Re: The Naked Gospel (new book)

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:01 pm

by kaufmannphillips

A PDF of the book can be downloaded for free:

http://www.thenakedgospel.com/free-ebook-download

Re: The Naked Gospel (new book)

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:44 pm

by TK

Darin wrote:

I strongly disagree (as does Scripture) with the notion that we don't need to ask forgiveness

What happens if a Christian doesnt ask for forgiveness?

I thought Jesus took care of the sin problem once for all time.

Now, I am being a tad argumentative, and I agree that we should CONFESS our sins, which would be in keeping with repentance, but havent we already been forgiven, even for sins we havent committed yet?

TK

Re: The Naked Gospel (new book)

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:20 pm

by Suzana

TK wrote:Darin wrote:

I strongly disagree (as does Scripture) with the notion that we don't need to ask forgiveness
What happens if a Christian doesnt ask for forgiveness?

I thought Jesus took care of the sin problem once for all time.

Now, I am being a tad argumentative, and I agree that we should CONFESS our sins, which would be in keeping with repentance, but havent we already been forgiven, even for sins we havent committed yet?

TK

Luk 11:1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Luk 11:3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
Luk 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Jesus was talking to those who were already his disciples; it wasn’t a model prayer for sinners seeking to come into the kingdom.
Neither was it a once-only prayer, designed to cover you the rest of your life (‘give us THIS day our daily bread’).

I haven’t read this guy’s book, just the article from the link so I am only going on that & this thread, but I don’t understand why anyone would be so hung up about asking God for forgiveness in the first place.

Well, actually I have a theory…could it be pride?

Imagine…you’ve done something thoughtless/careless/stupid/wrong, which has hurt your spouse or a good friend….
It might be fairly easy to say “oops, made a bit of a boo-boo here”.
If you really are contrite, (and wise) you might even throw in an apology, and mean it “really sorry about that”.
But isn’t it fairly humbling to then actually say those words, & ask “will you please forgive me?”

I think to do so shows (or is at least a part of) true repentance, acknowledges the offense to the other person, and shows that we don’t take for granted that the other person will forgive us anyway, even if unasked (even if we think or hope they would do that, or think they should); plus, it’s good manners! I would think this to be especially important if it's some major offense.
Also, it requires a response, & gives the other person the opportunity to be gracious.

I’m not saying I think that we can’t be forgiven without the words if we don’t voice them for some reason, just that (in my opinion) to ask for forgiveness would be a natural flow-on of repentance & certainly shouldn’t be something really hard to do.

Re: The Naked Gospel (new book)

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:16 pm

by steve

Even though Suzana chooses to go to her job over listening to my weekend program, I have to say that I agree with her post.

TK wrote:

What happens if a Christian doesnt ask for forgiveness?

I thought Jesus took care of the sin problem once for all time.

I think an illustration from marriage (my most common default) may clarify this. When you get married, you promise to stay faithful and together "for better or for worse." In a sense this is like saying "I forgive you in advance (in the sense of not rejecting you) for everything wrong that you may do for the rest of our lives together." Yet, as Suzana said, requests for forgiveness when offenses are committed is not ruled out by this arrangement, and they show that forgiveness is not taken for granted.

Re: The Naked Gospel (new book)

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:00 am

by steve7150

TK wrote:

What happens if a Christian doesnt ask for forgiveness?

I thought Jesus took care of the sin problem once for all time.

I think an illustration from marriage (my most common default) may clarify this. When you get married, you promise to stay faithful and together "for better or for worse." In a sense this is like saying "I forgive you in advance (in the sense of not rejecting you) for everything wrong that you may do for the rest of our lives together." Yet, as Suzana said, requests for forgiveness when offenses are committed is not ruled out by this arrangement, and they show that forgiveness is not taken for granted.

I think this seems like a good sentiment but i'm not sure it's necessarily scriptural. The Lord's prayer which Suzzana mentioned was before Christ's death and may be in the same category as when Jesus told the Pharisees that they should tithe. 1st John chap 1 seems to be addressed to gnostics encouraging them to confess that they are sinners to obtain forgiveness from Christ, not to believers to obtain forgiveness because that would contradict the entierty of Paul's writings re forgiveness. I think John starts speaking to believers in chap 2 when he addresses them as "My little children" and then went on to say "these things i write to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ." Notice John did not say to believers "If anyone sins make sure that he confesses his sins."
John already made it clear what cleanses us from all sin "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin." 1 John 1.7 This is consistent with the rest of the NT because if we have to confess every sin to obtain forgiveness then we are living from confession to confession not from faith to faith in Christ and if so you would need to confess everything like when you are fearful,worried or in doubt because "whatever is not of faith is sin."
When Paul wrote to the Corinthians he never said "go and confess your sins", he did say "do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you?" In spite of their sins Paul never implied they were unforgiven.

Re: The Naked Gospel (new book)

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:24 am

by TK

Steve7150-

you took the reply right out of my mouth. Thanks!

I guess my question "what happens if a Christian doesnt ask for forgiveness" was rhetorical one-- i certainly don't think that they lose their salvation, because I think what Christ accomplished covers sins that are not confessed. what if I sin and then a second later a tree limb falls on me and kills me, before I have a chance to confess or ask forgiveness? Am I not still "saved?" Must we live constantly in fear that I may forget to confess a sin? And what about sins of omission? What if I am having a bad day and fail to love my wife as Christ loves the church-- or any other areas where failure to act might be a sin.

I guess my point is that asking for forgiveness and confessing our sins has the effect of softening our hearts toward God (if we are truly born again). I think God views our sins as taken care of, once and for all. I dont think he is "mad" at us if we dont confess a sin.

TK