Question regarding the Charismatic movement

Post by **_Homer** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:17 pm

I read the article by Dr. Crosby, a charismatic, that Soaring Eagle posted the link to on the thread about the events at the Lakeland revival.

For many years I have been puzzled by the claims of the charismatic movement. I have read and heard their testimonies. I have been impressed by many of them, including Steve, who has a most impressive testimony. I consider him to be a friend and a brother, and an inspiration.

What has puzzled me, perhaps more than anything, is why, considering the spiritual empowerment charismatics claim to enjoy, above and beyond that of ordinary Christians ("dead rationalistic religion" in the words of Dr. Crosby), why do charismatics not live lives noticeably better (in obedience to Christ) than those of other Christians? I am not speaking of individuals in particular, but Christians in general. Exceptional Christians seem to be in the non-charismatic group as much as they are among the charismatics.

We have all heard of the great failures among prominent charismatics. Swaggart, Baker, Haggard, and Roberts, Jr. come readily to mind. I can think of similar cases among people I have known. It has been my observation that failure comes to charismatics as much as to any other group of bible believers, and much more so than some. I must emphasize this is only my impression from observation. Then in Dr. Crosby's article, he, a charismatic, stated the following fact which lends weight to my observation:

"Pentecostal Christians have the highest divorce rate in the world, higher than even atheists."

Does the charismatic movement, in general, have anything to distinguish itself in the Christian experience, from that of other Christians, other than the signs and wonders they claim? My impression, now confirmed regarding divorce (if Clark is correct), is that in general, charismatics are no better as followers of Jesus than other committed Christians.

Post by **_TK** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:17 am

Hi Homer-

I forwarded your question to my good friend Mark who attends my church and who has some background in charismatic circles. Here is his repsonse:

The thoughts that Homer expressed have always bothered me as well. One thing that Pastor E used to say that I couldn’t have said better is that just because someone is raising their hands, dancing or weeping and showing outward worship doesn’t mean they are any more spiritual than someone who doesn’t. That bothers me greatly. I do my best not to judge, lest I be judged, but even at C--- [our church, which does not lean charismatic] I see a few people (mostly female) that really get into the worship and even weep, talk about the power of God and the Holy Spirit and then I hear them say something or do something that would make one draw the conclusion that they aren’t very mature in their faith at all.

I think one of the reasons for this is that charismatic churches are often weaker in the fundamental teachings. They tend to put an emphasis on feelings and emotions. (At least a couple of the ones that I was involved with) The final straw in us leaving an Assembly of God was because a speaker was very incorrect with his telling of a story from the O.T., but when it came time for prayer, kept having music played and continued to keep telling us that the Holy Spirit was so heavy on that place that we had to “feel” Him and respond or come forward. The guy had butchered the story so bad and I think if more people would have realized it I think they should have been more concerned about how erroneously they were being taught. I believe this is a good example of what is wrong in some of the charismatic churches.

That is why I found the Vineyard to be so refreshing. Our pastor taught from the word and made it clear that we needed to be strong in our knowledge of the word. He challenged us with scripture and then would wait on the Holy Spirit to move. I have some of the sweetest memories from that church. More than any other church I’ve been involved with.

TK

Post by **_Homer** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:49 am

TK,

Thank you for the interesting response.

Post by **_Mort_Coyle** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:19 pm

Hi Homer,

I was part of the Vineyard--which is a charismatic movement--for 20+ years, and had interactions with adherents to many other charismatic movements throughout that time, so I'll offer my take on this.

First off, whether or not charismatics live better lives than non-charismatics would be extremely difficult to objectively quantify. But I agree with you that, subjectively speaking, it seems that charismatics are no better in terms of holy living than non-charismatics. And perhaps, as a group, worse.

I think any lack of holy living (aka Christian maturity, aka fruit of the Spirit) has more to do with an "outside-in" approach to Christianity than anything else. Charismatic movements tend to emphasize external phenomena (signs, wonders, gifts, manifestations, etc.) which it is hoped will result in spiritual growth. I have observed a tendency among charismatics to constantly be looking to the next "thing"--be it a conference, a "touch" from the Holy Spirit, a type of manifestation (i.e., being "drunk in the Spirit"), a miracle, or a revival--which will bring about change and growth in the believer.

I must emphasize that I'm painting with a very broad brush here though. I've known some extremely godly and mature Christians who are also charismatic. I've come to the conclusion that being charismatic, in and of itself, is not the reason for their maturity and godliness. It may, in fact, be in impediment if one is taught to constantly look to external manifestations as a goal at the expense of the harder and more tedious work of day-by-day discipleship.

I think non-charismatics can make the same mistake: Emphasizing external things as a means of achieving maturity. Memorizing scripture, for example, is not a sure-fire path to Christian growth.

My orientation has changed entirely. Rather than an "outside-in" approach, I'm seeking an "inside-out" approach. Some would call this "Christian mysticism". The idea is to seek--first and foremost--to know God: through personal encounter, as well as scripture, prayer and community. This implies intentional waiting and listening for God. The next step is to then be obedient to the leading and instruction of the Holy Spirit throughout one's day. Simply put, to listen and obey. If, in the course of obediently following Jesus, something "charismatic" happens, it is a by-product of something much deeper.

It also means not being particularly impressed with high-profile personalities and ministries and their tales of signs and wonders. Whether they are true or not is irrelevant. What is important is listening and obeying for oneself.

Post by **_SamIam** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:36 pm

Homer,

I am no help in this at all. I was raised in a very "un-charismatic" church. I was 15 years old before I heard anything I would recognize as a personal testimony. I found it contrived and unconvincing. I still routinely disregard anything that sounds like personal testimony. Show me something from the Word, and you'll get my attention....

It seems to me that the high profile moral failures are more characteristic of the alpha male in a group taking liberties than anything about charismatic beliefs.

Perhaps true spiritual maturity has nothing to do with the amount of enthusiasm displayed in public worship. (It seems to me that those who carry on the most are trying way too hard.)

Post by **_Mort_Coyle** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:02 pm

Gotta be careful there, SamIam:

David Danced - Michal Watched

Michal was loyal
To everything royal
For she was the daughter of Saul.
But her husband was boorish
So awfully boorish
With simply no manners at all.

It was her fate
To marry a mate
Who had grown up with chickens and sheep
How to bring charm
To this boy from the farm
Was causing his queen to lose sleep.

Oh, she had to confess
He was a success,
In the eyes of the world, Dave was famous
But of how kings comport
Themselves when in court
He remained a complete ignoramus.

David's heart soared
And he danced to the Lord
In a manner more free than refined.
And his poor little wife
Got the shock of her life
So she gave him a piece of her mind.

"I don't care a smidgen
About your religion
As long as it's solemn and chaste
But the way you're behaving
With arms wildly waving
Is shockingly lacking in taste."

"If you must raise
Your spirit in praise,
Please see that it's soothing and calm.
The Lord I am sure
Would really prefer
Something more like the 23rd Psalm."

Then God's anointed
Became disappointed
He knew he had nary a chance
Of ever persuadin'
This prim, regal maiden
That the Lord is a lover of dance.

Churches these days
Talk a lot about praise
And the Joy that accomp'nies Good News
But don't tap your feet
Or get out of the seat
For Michal still lurks in the pews.

- David Steele

Post by **_SamIam** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:25 pm

Mort,

Point noted. Still it seems that enthusiasm is easier to generate than spirtual maturity. There must be 101 ways to rev up a crowd, but only God can sanctify the soul.

Post by **_Mort_Coyle** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:14 am

Agreed.

Post by **_TK** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:29 am

good discussion-

i like the poem, danny.

TK

Post by **_brody_in_ga** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:06 am

We must all keep in mind that the Corinthian Church were a very immature group, and Charismatic as well.

To tell the truth, I have been in Charismatic churches throughout my entire Christian life, and I have been in Baptist(Dry as toast)Churches as well. The former kinda got on my nerves, because I have seen a lot of stuff that made me cringe, but the dry groups never seemed much better either.

As far as morality amongst Charismatics, the same can be said of many non-charismatics as well. Some of the meanest people I have ever encountered served at non-charismatic churches, but lived lives that seemed exemplary to many on the outside. And if you didn't know them personally(as I did), you would think they were mature Christians.

I think there are two extremes. You have the crazy charismatics who swing from the chandeliers, and you have the guys/gals who reject the gifts and relegate themselves to just memorizing scripture, and think that this in some way makes them holy and mature. I know some hardcore non-instrumental Church of Christ folks who are spitting mean, and even reject the notion of the Holy Spirit dwelling within believers today, yet they memorize verses and think this is how mature Christians ought to be.

Then of course, you have the Rodney Howard Brown type who have tossed their bibles on the coffee table, in favor of exciting feelings and emotions.

Lord give us all a proper balance.