Book Review: Pagan Christianity, Part 2

[Guest]

Does it seem that there is far more emphasis on singing and music in the church today than in early Christianity?

Perhaps more in "services"; less in every-day Christian communication. The apostle Paul spoke of addressing each other in "psalms and hymns and spiritual songs".

[karenstricycle]

Here is some evidence that supports bro. Rick in his assertion that the separation of the Lord's supper from the love feast began very early. The following was written by Pliny to Emporer Trajan, circa 111-113 AD:

[The former Christians] asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.

This quote is from letter 10.96.

[Guest]

Excerpted from the above Love Feast link:

The Encyclopedia of Early Christianity offers this observation: “Eventually, abuses, coupled with imperial rescripts forbidding the meals of secret societies, brought about the separation of the fraternal meal (agape) and Eucharist, but not everywhere and not at once. In Ignatius (ca. 110), for instance, the celebration of the agape is related to but distinct from the Eucharist; so also, the Didache. In Justin Martyr, the Eucharist seems to have absorbed the fraternal functions characteristic of agape. ...On the other hand, in Clement’s Alexandria (ca. 200) agape and Eucharist are joined, in spite of the signal abuses to which Clement gives witness.

“There is general agreement that from the mid-third century, agape and Eucharist go their separate ways.” [p. 17]

Paidion's Letter to the Smyrneans quote, coupled with Homer's Pliny quote, could indicate they [Love Feast and Communion] may have been held separately early on; at least sometimes (circa 110s, ff.). It might be that, at times, they were held in synch...and at others separately. It's difficult to tell for sure from these texts.

The early 2nd century Christians probably ate 'regular meals' together often (which might be hinted at in Pliny, above). Yet at their regular (communal) meals they would have prayed and "worshiped." So it's hard to tell if these meals were Love Feasts or regular meals (or to which meal Pliny was really referring to).

Pliny wrote..."...I had forbidden political associations."
By "political associations" Pliny was probably referring to trade guilds. Tradesmen would meet, share a common meal, and pray to the deities who watched over their trade and/or over them. In other words, it was like their "church." Interestingly, they referred to themselves as "a body with many members." The presidents of guilds were sometimes referred to as "the head of the body" (themes which Paul picks up on in his letters).

Also, such a "political association" was inherently religious---with no separation of church and state. To have a job was to worship the gods associated with that job!

Sometimes these guilds people lived together in a building or buildings. The president of the guild---(as we also see 'president of the synagogue' in the NT and NT times)---owned the building(s). Workers had apartments in them. Going by rank in the guild; living space was assigned: Those lowest on the rung could have really cramped quarters (very small apartment).

This communal type of living is similar to what we see in Acts. However, it wasn't exactly the same. There was a definite pecking order based on one's position in the guild. Similarly, there was a ranking system in the synagogues too: where one sat, and so on. (The book of James speaks against this kind of order and preferential treatment).
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It seems that 150 years earlier (in Northern Africa anyway) things were quite different. When I read Tertullian's description of singing, I picture a much less formal scenario. Apparently everyone took part and many even sang songs of their own making.

I haven't read good ol' Tertullian in a while.
He's my fave guy of the period...our way of doing theology are kind of alike (but that's another topic)....

But, yes, as you say: The Church or individual churches prior to the Council of Laodicea...or going back to the 2nd century till the mid-4th or so: It seems they were pretty "free" in worship; not as of yet having a [rigid liturgical] yoke around their necks, or something along those lines....
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Btw, I've PMd Matt & Danny, telling them I started this thread.

I just got my copy of "PC" today, on loan from my library. They ordered it to keep in stock, which I talked them into due to the book's popularity (it's not a "loaner" from another library). Thanks,

[karenstricycle]

Rick,

You wrote:

Excerpted from the above Love Feast link:
Quote:
The Encyclopedia of Early Christianity offers this observation

Is this the encyclopedia edited by Everett Ferguson? I see it listed at Amazon:

Encyclopedia of early Christianity / Everett Ferguson, editor ; Michael P. McHugh, Frederick W. Norris, associate editors ; David M. Scholer, consulting editor by Everett (1933-?); McHugh, Michael P; Norris, Frederick W (1941-?) & Scholer, David M (editors) Ferguson (Hardcover - 1990)
1 Used & new from $102.50

I would like to have a copy but it appears to be out of print, and a bit spendy.

[Guest]

Hi Homer,

It most likely is that book.
Everett Ferguson has a book with a similar title on the "Love Feast" link (Scroll Publishing):
"Backgrounds of Early Christianity"
http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/b ... anity.html

I've heard of the book and think I recently saw or read a review.
If I'm not mistaken it got "very good" rating & high recommendation.

Actually, (I just looked).
I read Nick Norelli's review of:
The New Testament: Its Background, Growth, & Content
(Third Edition, Revised and Enlarged) by Bruce M. Metzger, (Abingdon Press).

Both of these books are probably excellent (but I've read neither).
Take Care,

[Guest]

Pagan Christianity
- Christian Education -

1. Let’s take a poll to test Viola’s opening line? Do you think one needs a formal Christian education in order to do the Lord’s work?

2. PC states that the early Christians didn’t have Bible colleges, seminaries and Sunday schools, but were, instead, ‘hands-on.’ Do you think 1st century training included an academic aspect? Do you think modern Christian schools include a hands-on aspect?

3. The chapter introduction ends by saying the seminaries, Bible-colleges & Sunday school are ‘at odds with the way of Christ.’ Does Viola’s writing style make you more or less interested in his argument?

4. How does Viola’s rebuke of Greek influence (203-205) mesh with his use of Socrates (4)?

5. How much formal education do you think a Bible teacher needs?

6. Viola doesn’t think children were separated from the adults in the early church. What are the pros and cons of ministries just for kids?

7. Viola doesn’t think the teens should be separated from the adults either. What are the pros and cons ministries just for teens?

8. PC makes a bold statement at the top of page 216: “Present-day Christian education is serving food from the wrong tree: the tree of the knowledge of good and evil rather than the tree of life.” What do the authors mean? Do you agree with them?

9. The main complaint of the authors seems to be that Christians treat ‘head knowledge’ as of the utmost importance, often ignoring whether or not the message has reached below the neck. Do you agree?


Next Week:
Reapproaching the NT (Pages 221-242)

[Guest]

My thoughts on Mattrose's questions:
1) No formal Christian training required
2) "academic aspects" were necessarily limited by the education level of the believers. No real "hands-on" can occur in a college setting.
3) I enjoyed the writing style, not sure how that effects my interest in his argument.
4) no opinion
5) Be able to read
6) All depends on the kids and the ministires. What works for one may not work for another.
7) Teens are either adults or kids. See above for kids include otherwise include with adults.
8) I think it boils down to Church for church's sake for Chirst for Christ's sake and I tend to agree with the author although I don't think it is a absolute.
9) I know I'm accused of head knowledge whenever I disagree with someone. Not sure this is the main complaint of the authors.

[Guest]

In regards to #2, I've seen significant improvement in the 'hands on' aspect of Bible colleges lately. It seems to me a lot more of them are mandating internships (and longer one's). A lot of them require a certain number of 'student ministry' credits. This is a positive development.

[Guest]

Pagan Christianity
- Re-Approaching the NT --> Conclusion -


1. PC states that ‘proof-texting’ is the most common approach to the NT today. What is proof-texting? Is it common? Should it be avoided? What are the alternatives?


2. PC notes that verse numbers became a part of Scripture in 1551 and that ‘since that time God’s people have approached the New Testament with scissors and glue… lifting them out of their real-life setting, lashing them together to build floatable doctrines.’ Did you ever wonder where chapter and verse numbers came from and how they impact the way you think of Scripture?


3. The authors think that the addition of chapters and verses to Scripture made it less personal and more like a manual. Do you agree? How is treating the Bible like a manual dangerous?



4. Viola uses the best available ‘scholarship’ to establish the proper chronological order of the NT letters. How does his view jive with his ‘anti-scholastic’ stance in the previous chapter? (203-205)


5. Paul’s letters in Scripture are, in general, arranged by length. PC argues that knowing the chronological order of the letters is ‘essential’ to understanding them. Do you agree?


6. The authors realize the views expressed in PC are radical, but insist that Jesus Himself was a revolutionary. Jesus was asked why His disciples ‘break the tradition of the elders’ (Matt 15:2). Should we provoke the same questions today?


7. The ‘hope’ of the authors of PC is that Christians will begin to ask the tough questions and subsequently begin to be more like the 1st century church (face-to-face community, priesthood of all believers, open-participation, nonhierarchial leadership, centrality of Christ.) Are those values your values?

[Guest]

Hi Matt- much earlier, on the original thread of this topic, you wrote:

Second, I am not convinced leaving is as great a step of faith as staying and being a change agent.

the reference was to Viola's new book "Reimagining Christianity" and its claim that many are leaving traditional churches for a more "organic" experience.

My question is this: at some point is it not better to leave, than to rock the boat too much? I have seen churches damaged by an attempt by a subset of "insiders" to change the way the particular church has done things for years because they feel they are "correct" in either their doctrine or practice.

At the same time, I do feel that sometimes a church must be challenged now again from the inside and sometimes I see myself (and others in my church) as potential "change agents." The problem, of course, is knowing how hard to push without causing disorder or disruption.

Do you see what I am getting at?

TK