Excellent video on the Word of Faith movement

[Guest]

"Your faith has made you well," it is probably a mistake to extend this to the idea that in all cases of divine healing it is one's faith who makes him well. It is well known that our minds work in amazing ways. That is why people in a control group often experience the same or similar positive results from taking a placebo as those who take the medicine


Except for the fact it also says "Jesus felt power come out of him."

[_Paidion]

Yes, it is interesting that Mark and Luke both record that.

However, Matthew, the only one of the three gospels written by one of the twelve (Matthew was an eyewitness of these events), doesn't mention anything about power leaving Jesus . Of course, that is no proof that it didn't happen.

Just an observation.

[Guest]

Hi Paidion,

Re:

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.

You wrote:

I don't think "faith" is the referent of the word "this". Rather I think the referent is "grace". Grace is the gift of God. Indeed "gift" is inherent in the meaning of the word "grace".

I would beg to differ. According to the Baur, Danker, Arndt & Gingrich Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (which is considered to be highly authoritative), touto (this, as in "and this not") refers to "the person or thing comparatively near at hand in the discourse material." In this passage the nearest referent is pistis (faith).

Besides, charis (grace) is, by it's very nature a gift (as you touched on). It would be redundant to say "the gift is a gift". Faith, on the other hand, is something one might consider to be within one's own control. Paul is saying that even that is a gift.

[_Paidion]

I would beg to differ. According to the Baur, Danker, Arndt & Gingrich Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (which is considered to be highly authoritative), touto (this, as in "and this not") refers to "the person or thing comparatively near at hand in the discourse material." In this passage the nearest referent is pistis (faith).

And I differ with those men. Although the referent is usually the nearest, it isn't always.

Besides, charis (grace) is, by it's very nature a gift (as you touched on). It would be redundant to say "the gift is a gift". Faith, on the other hand, is something one might consider to be within one's own control. Paul is saying that even that is a gift.

It is not redundant because "charis" does not mean only "gift".
There are a huge number of references to grace having its source in God. It is usually the enablement of God for us to accomplish his will. Titus 2 describes it as a training.

For grace to come from ourselves would imply that we can accomplish God's will through self-effort, but the next phrase "not from works lest anyone should boast" negates this.

[Guest]

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.



Is it possible that the gift is not faith or grace but salvation?

[Guest]

There are a huge number of references to grace having its source in God. It is usually the enablement of God for us to accomplish his will. Titus 2 describes it as a training.

For grace to come from ourselves would imply that we can accomplish God's will through self-effort, but the next phrase "not from works lest anyone should boast" negates this.

I agree with everything you are saying here. Grace does not come from us, it comes from God. However, what Paul is saying is that even the faith to act upon the grace is a gift from God.

Is it possible that the gift is not faith or grace but salvation?

It's all a gift. Salvation is the end result; grace is God's orientation towards us; faith is our orientation towards God--but even that comes as a gift from Him.

[Guest]

Yes, it is interesting that Mark and Luke both record that.

However, Matthew, the only one of the three gospels written by one of the twelve (Matthew was an eyewitness of these events), doesn't mention anything about power leaving Jesus . Of course, that is no proof that it didn't happen.


Many people including myself believe Peter is the voice behind Mark , and Peter was there and Luke probably spoke with people who were there too.

[Guest]

TK or Steve7150, are either of you willing to talk about this anymore? I have a question or two I want to ask.

Michelle

[Guest]

Hello Michelle,

I'll talk. Haven't been following this, the Calvinists are keeping me busy.

Earlier Steve7150 wrote:

That's true, yet in the case of the women with the blood disease she knew Jesus was the Messiah but it was'nt until she fought her way through the crowd to touch his garment that she was healed.
She WORKED to get through the crowd, she sought after Christ and she was healed.
Also in your case these guys believed Jesus was the Messiah also but they also made a great effort to reach him and to circumvent the crowd. Even cutting a hole through the roof to reach Jesus. That took a lot of work. (Mark 2.4).

I believe Steve is correct. In the case of the men making a hole in the roof to get the man to Jesus, He observed their action and denominated it "faith". Likewise the woman's effort were referred to as faith. Their actions had the meaning of faith. We so often see faith as something abstract, apart from any action. I do not believe Jesus saw it that way.

And Steve wrote:

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Is it possible that the gift is not faith or grace but salvation?

And again I must agree. "Saved" is a gift unless you consider it to be earned. The gift comes through faith.

[Guest]

Hi Michelle- ask away!

I think this is all very interesting.

TK