Excellent video on the Word of Faith movement

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_TK
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Post by _TK » Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:34 pm

Michelle wrote:
I realize that you distance yourself from Word of Faith teachers, but do you feel that some of us distance ourselves so much that we dismiss the Spirit's power in our lives?
YES! steve7150 earlier called this "throwing the baby out with the bathwater." I've also heard it put this way-- we have to learn to swallow the meat and spit out the bones.

At my church, about 4 years ago, there was a subset of people who were much more charismatic than our congregation at large. ultimately it caused some tension with the head pastor, and ultimately they left the church (about 20 of them or so). They werent doing anything strange in the meeting- they were just more aggressively going after the things of God in a well, more charismatic way. I suppose that if back then i was where I am now in my walk, I would have been in that subgroup and likely have left as well.

At any rate, our pastor felt "burned" by this large group of people leaving, so he became very suspicious of anything charismatic. Those of us who lean that way (or are trying to) do it in an underground sort of way.

There are definitely different "flavors" of charismatic teachers; some I cannot hardly stomach (Hinn, Copeland, to name a couple). However, others, like Andrew Wommack, I really like. I have learned TONS from listening to Andrew Wommack's audio teachings.

I have also learned tons from listening to Michael Brown and Bob Gladstone- who are both associated with the FIRE Church and School of Ministry in Concord, NC. You can check some of their sermons out at that website, and also sites like fireonthealtar.com. They are charismatic, but more along the lines of trying to get today's church into a more apostolic mindset the way God intends. They would teach that performing healings and deliverances is part of our church mission today, although that is not their main focus.

I find that if I am going to learn more about what it means to be "charismatic," then I am going to have to find out on my own. That's what I have done, primarily by listening to people noted above. I have a long commute, so I listen to hours and hours of teaching per week. Steve G talks about being charismatic, and I have listened to his series on the gifts, etc but he doesnt go into a lot of practical things (unless I have missed it).

Elsewhere on the forum I asked if anybody has heard anything about Bethel Church in Redding, CA. I have read a lot of things on their website; a lot of it looks very good, but decidely charismatic (but not in an "icky" way. more of a challenging way) The website is www.ibethel.org.

Anyway, that's probably too much info.

Like Andrew W. s fond of saying, I may not have arrived, but at least I've left.

TK
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_Michelle
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Post by _Michelle » Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:12 pm

Hi TK,

Thanks for all the information. I appreciate the time you took to explain a little about your journey...I love hearing what people are learning.


I find that if I am going to learn more about what it means to be "charismatic," then I am going to have to find out on my own. That's what I have done, primarily by listening to people noted above. I have a long commute, so I listen to hours and hours of teaching per week. Steve G talks about being charismatic, and I have listened to his series on the gifts, etc but he doesnt go into a lot of practical things (unless I have missed it).
Well, I don't think you are entirely on your own, I'm pretty sure the Holy Spirit will be teaching you.
Elsewhere on the forum I asked if anybody has heard anything about Bethel Church in Redding, CA. I have read a lot of things on their website; a lot of it looks very good, but decidely charismatic (but not in an "icky" way. more of a challenging way) The website is www.ibethel.org.
Sorry, I live on the opposite end of the state, and it's a long state.
Anyway, that's probably too much info.
Not at all!
Like Andrew W. s fond of saying, I may not have arrived, but at least I've left.
heh :D
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:47 pm

In other words, the gospel message, at least in my eyes, should not just be so much rhetoric. Jesus backed up his message with demonstrations of power, as did the apostles. I am not sure where we get the mindset that we today can get by without any demonstrations of the Spirit's power.


In 1st John it says "Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil" suggesting the works of the devil must be very powerful. Satan i believe has dominion of this world and John 10 suggests that he is the thief who came illegally into the sheep-pen by deceiving Eve and stealing the dominion of the world given by God to Adam and Eve.
That's why IMO , Jesus had to come as a man "born of a women" to reclaim dominion from Satan (John 12) and he gave that authority first to 12 disciples but then to 70 more (Luke 10) and now to us. So healing is part of reclaiming this world from Satan, at least that's my view. And i think we are here to do more then sit back and wait for the heaven express to arrive. I think that many Christians confuse humility with passivity. I think biblical humility is something like controlled strength or authority.
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Post by _TK » Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:52 am

agreed, steve. Amen!

TK
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Post by _Michelle » Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:07 am

STEVE7150 wrote:In other words, the gospel message, at least in my eyes, should not just be so much rhetoric. Jesus backed up his message with demonstrations of power, as did the apostles. I am not sure where we get the mindset that we today can get by without any demonstrations of the Spirit's power.


In 1st John it says "Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil" suggesting the works of the devil must be very powerful. Satan i believe has dominion of this world and John 10 suggests that he is the thief who came illegally into the sheep-pen by deceiving Eve and stealing the dominion of the world given by God to Adam and Eve.
That's why IMO , Jesus had to come as a man "born of a women" to reclaim dominion from Satan (John 12) and he gave that authority first to 12 disciples but then to 70 more (Luke 10) and now to us. So healing is part of reclaiming this world from Satan, at least that's my view. And i think we are here to do more then sit back and wait for the heaven express to arrive. I think that many Christians confuse humility with passivity. I think biblical humility is something like controlled strength or authority.
So, Steve, do you believe that if someone who is a believer is ill they are playing into the hands of Satan? Do you believe that a truly humble person would be able to bring about healing? Every time?
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Post by __id_2627 » Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:26 am

Hi STEVE7150, you wrote,
Satan i believe has dominion of this world and John 10 suggests that he is the thief who came illegally into the sheep-pen by deceiving Eve and stealing the dominion of the world given by God to Adam and Eve.
In what sense do you think that Satan has dominion of this world?

Psalms 24:1 The earth is the LORD's, and all its fullness, The world and those who dwell therein.

Shel
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:56 am

So, Steve, do you believe that if someone who is a believer is ill they are playing into the hands of Satan? Do you believe that a truly humble person would be able to bring about healing? Every time?


As we know Michelle it says "we perish because of our lack of knowledge"
and it's referring to God's Word but specifically to the fact that Satan is really our adversary who seeks to kill and destroy us. And part of destroying us is making us spiritually and physically sick and weak.
The "lack of knowledge" reference may be to the fact that we have been given authority over Satan by Jesus , but we don't appreciate our responsibility in general.
However people can become ill simply because we live in a fallen world with diseases that are rampent so i would never accuse anyone of playing into Satan's hands.
Many of the examples in the NT of healing were related to clearly taking faith to another level beyond traditional salvation , so i think it's more a faith issue then a humility issue. And whether it's every time, maybe not but often enough for me to sit up and take notice.
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:20 am

In what sense do you think that Satan has dominion of this world?




Psalms 24:1 The earth is the LORD's, and all its fullness, The world and those who dwell therein.


Hi Shel,

Paul called Satan "the god of this world" 2 Cor 4.4 and Satan offered to Jesus "the kingdoms of this world" if he would bow down and worship Satan. Was Satan trying to fool Jesus? No, because these were real, legitimate temptations that Jesus had to overcome and if he were lying Jesus would have called him on such an important claim.
So yes the earth is God's as is everything, but i think Satan has a lease on this world for a certain period of time.
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Post by _TK » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:05 am

I agree, steve, and I think one of his big strategies is to convince christians that God wants them sick (i.e. that it is simply God's will).

TK
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Post by _darin-houston » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:18 am

I think this issue of healing is just very complex -- Steve's friend Jim who calls the show periodically was on The Narrow Mind the other day with this question -- there is a reason God doesn't heal amputees or other miraculous healings of the sort, and there is a reason believers in a hospital can go without healing while a non-believer next door might be healed. I think we just have to accept that and recognize that both our health and our illness could be a gift from God and learn to rejoice in either situation.
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