Excellent video on the Word of Faith movement

Post by **_darin-houston** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:48 pm

God causes babies to be born blind,without limbs,without brains,infected with aids,with cancer for his glorification?

Was Job's suffering for God's glory?

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:08 pm

God causes babies to be born blind,without limbs,without brains,infected with aids,with cancer for his glorification?

Was Job's suffering for God's glory?

Yes, at least partly because of Job's faith. It's hard for me to project that to babies born with diseases though.
One thing that strikes me is that if God causes diseases why did Jesus pray that God's will s/b done on earth as it is in heaven. Are there diseases in heaven?

Post by **_Suzana** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:27 pm

Yes God can humble us but New Covenant believers have a relationship with God defined by His covenant. I don't see where in this covenant God smites us with illness but i see this.
"How God annointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power who went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil for God was with him." Acts 10.38

This was written to New Covenant believers:

Heb 12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons, "My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when you are rebuked by Him;
Heb 12:6 for whom the Lord loves He chastens, and He scourges every son whom He receives."

I realize that the nature of the chastisement is not defined, but could this not include illness as well as other forms?
Even if God's preference in general is for our physical health (which I believe), I don't see why God could not at times, at His discretion cause physical illness for our spiritual good.
(If God can use illness to achieve a greater good, I don't understand why we would object to Him at times causing it, also for a greater good).
A physician, who amputates someone's arm, could be accused of breaking the Hippocratic oath:
I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.
However, the physician by causing additional pain and loss in cutting off an arm (eg. if gangrene is present), is actually saving a life by adhering to another part of the oath:
To keep the good of the patient as the highest priority.
I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required,

Post by **_darin-houston** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:48 pm

I realize that the nature of the chastisement is not defined, but could this not include illness as well as other forms?
Even if God's preference in general is for our physical health (which I believe), I don't see why God could not at times, at His discretion cause physical illness for our spiritual good.
(If God can use illness to achieve a greater good, I don't understand why we would object to Him at times causing it, also for a greater good).

This is pretty much my position -- I can tell you from having to deal with a significant amount of life-threatening illness in my family (not me personally) that I have grown closer to God from it spiritually more than any other thing in my life and saw God use it in a way for others and the body of Christ in ways that make it hard not to be thankful for it.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:51 am

Heb 12:6 for whom the Lord loves He chastens, and He scourges every son whom He receives."

I realize that the nature of the chastisement is not defined, but could this not include illness as well as other forms?
Even if God's preference in general is for our physical health (which I believe), I don't see why God could not at times, at His discretion cause physical illness for our spiritual good.

I can't say it's impossible but we also were talking about babies born with serious illnesses like cancer or aids, many of whom die in agony. Is this chastisement? No, i doubt it unless you can explain the glory or benefit in this.
In John it says Jesus came to reveal the Father (1.18)and to make him manifest (17.12) so we may know him. Since this was one of the reasons Jesus came as well as to destroy the works of the devil , why not examine Jesus's charactor and works if we want to know God?
Jesus went around healing people and he said he was not doing his own will but the will of his Father.

Post by **_TK** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:17 am

Darin- somewhere further up I posted a quote that addressed the Job question- it also addresses suzana's OT examples- here it is again:

The Old Testament is filled with questions that the cross has answered. Who did Jesus not heal when they came to Him for healing? When did He ever say that the Father had given them a sickness so they would become more holy or humble? Never. A question cannot cancel a revelation, which means that any question I may have has no power to cancel what God has shown me. Jesus is the perfect revelation of the Father. As such, Jesus Christ is perfect theology.

People ask, “What about Job?” I tell them, “I’m not a disciple of Job; I’m a disciple of Jesus.” Job was the question; Jesus is the answer. If I read Job and it doesn't lead me to Jesus, then I never understood the question. All the law and the prophets were to create an awareness of need. That awareness prepared Israel for a savior. To return to the standards of the law and the prophets at the expense of ignoring the perfect revelation of the Father given to us in the person of Jesus Christ is to fall to the ultimate expression of arrogance. It puts us back in the place of control where we do what is humanly possible—and call it ministry.

The life that Jesus led was not an aberration or a temporary statement of God's solution for humanity. He started something that we are to complete. Jesus said, "As the Father sent Me, I send you”

http://www.bjm.org

Here is another quick answer to the question of why everyone doesn't get healed:

Is it Always God’s will to heal someone?
How can God choose not to heal someone when He already purchased their healing? Was His blood enough for all sin, or just certain sins? Were the stripes He bore only for certain illnesses, or certain seasons of time? When He bore stripes in His body He made a payment for our miracle. He already decided to heal. You can't decide not to buy something after you've already bought it.

There are no deficiencies on His end - neither the covenant is deficient, nor His compassion or promises. All lack is on our end of the equation. The only time someone wasn't healed in the Bible (gospels) is when the disciples prayed for them. For example, Mark 9 when they prayed for the tormented child. They did not have breakthrough. But then, Jesus came and brought healing and deliverance to the child.

Jesus Christ is perfect theology - He is the will of God. We can't lower the standard of scripture to our level of experience . . . or in most cases, inexperience. It's a very uncomfortable realization - not everyone can handle it. Most create doctrine that you can't find in the person of Jesus. He is the will of God.

How do we fix the problem?

1. Realize it's not God's fault.

2. Learn from others who see miracles. Have them pray for you. If you don't know people who see miracles, find them. Books will help, if the author has a miracle lifestyle. (Don't try to learn from those who only have the theory of miracles.)

3. Do what Jesus told His disciples to do when He addressed the problem - pray and fast (not just for a specific problem, but for a lifestyle anointing.)

4. Take risk - pray for people (NOT - "if it be thy will" kind of prayer. In the thousands of people I've seen healed, I've never seen anyone healed from that kind of prayer.)

5. It's hard to hurt someone's faith by praying for a miracle. Not praying for a miracle gives them no chance for increased faith. That is what hurts faith. The real goal is to show people God's love. And faith grows in the display of God's love. His love is seen when we show compassion and display God's power.

6. When God heals people, give Him thanks and praise. Learn from it so it will happen again.

7. If someone isn't healed, realize the problem isn't God, and seek Him for direction as well as personal breakthrough (greater anointing for consistency in healing). Also, don't take it personal. There are other factors involved besides great faith. That is only one element in the equation. Just learn to do your best to be faithful to His gospel, and honor Him for the results. It's also not wise to blame the person who is sick.

8. There's a difference between a miracle and healing. Miracles happen in an instant and healing happens over time. It is important to recognize the progress of what God is doing in a person's body and give thanks, because healing increases in an atmosphere of thankfulness.

Now I realize that the writer believes that physical healing is provided for in the atonement- nothing wrong with that, although I realize that many christians believe otherwise. I was definitely one of them, but i have read enough and heard enough that I realize I cannot be dogmatic about that any longer

Darin wrote:

TK, how do you view birth defects? blindness? Accidental injury? I think God causes these things and choose people to suffer these inflictions (at least some times) for the purpose of His own glorification.

gee whiz, darin, that sounds a little calvinistic. do you really really really believe that God sits on his throne and decides who is going to be born with a birth defect today, or what mother is going to be snatched from her 3 kids in a fatal car crash? As for me, I simply cannot believe that. No, Satan is the thief, the murderer, the robber, the destroyer. Sin has corrupted the genetic code. mothers do drugs during pregnancy. women in the ukraine were subjected to radiation. People drive drunk. Deer run into the road. This is why babies are born with birth defects and accidents happen. God is not striking babies. Can God get glory out of a baby born with a birth defect? YES. But to suggest that God CAUSES the birth defect for his glory sounds a little, well, evil. As Bill Johnson says in the quote above, Jesus is the perfect representation of the Father. Can you imagine Jesus walking up to a pregnant woman and saying" May your child be born with no arms, for the glory of God." Come on now.

TK

Post by **_darin-houston** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:08 am

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say God "CAUSES" these things (least not in every case), though I acknowledge He might in some circumstances. But, I only think we should think seriously why we see affliction in a negative light. I'm not sure he would see things exactly from my perspective, but Steve makes the point comparing affliction to exercise -- you're tearing down your muscles, and it's not fun, but you come out stronger. How is it that God might not cause some of this pain to build us up (or someone else in the body of Christ) for His glory.

I recognize some of this sounds Calvinistic -- I used to be a Calvinist and relished in this idea of God's sovereignty, and it gave me peace (for a while). But, I think we go too far to just chalk it all up to sin and Satan.

For the part of Job, I don't "look to Job" -- i look to Jesus, but I think it's clear that God gained glory in Job's afflictions.

Did God cause Paul's thorn in his flesh? He sure rejoiced from it.

By the way, with regard to this sounding Calvinistic, I think it's a far cry from suggesting God caused someone to experience some affliction or adversity to suggesting that He created them for the very purpose of reprobation and to never have the opportunity to know or serve Him.

Post by **_TK** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:21 am

Hey darin- sorry about the calvinistic comment- that was a low blow.

In regard to paul's thorn in the flesh, I dont believe it was an illness (i think it was a demonic spirit that stirred up persecution), but that is just my opinion. Thorns in the flesh in the OT were always people.

I dont want to come across sounding like i dont ever expect Christians to have hardships and trials. That would be a silly belief because the bible says that we WILL. christians in less friendly nations are under extreme pressure.

In fact, if we are not experiencing persecution, it is likely ipso facto evidence that we are living below the kingdom level.

TK

Post by **_TK** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:27 am

Check this video clip out. This really sums up my heart on this issue:

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/190055.aspx

TK

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:02 pm

Check this video clip out. This really sums up my heart on this issue:

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/190055.aspx

Amen, i'd like to add that a miracle can often take much time and require much faith over a long time to believe until the manifestation takes place. Many people get discouraged and stop having faith that God performs miracles if it does'nt happen quickly.
The key is to believe until it happens.