Questions for Mormons

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selah
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Re: Questions for Mormons

Post by selah » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:33 pm

Jill, thanks for your reply. (I wonder where Lee is...)

My son said there are about 400 sects within the Latter Day Saint denomination! I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was. After all, there are hundreds of different Evangelical denominations, and think of the myriad of varieties of theological viewpoints!

Anyway, my son explained to me that there is the "mainstream LDS official stand on doctrine" and then, there are the other 400 various viewpoints which make up the other "sects." My son said he believes the "official" church doctrine, which states what he termed, "ongoing revelation", meaning that the current LDS President (also known as a Prophet, my son says) can make new theology. I believe this is why he believes Lorenso Snow, and others, could say things they did about a "heavenly mother"--and the LDS members receive it as theology. He also mentioned a song in the LDS hymnal, in which "heavenly mother" is sung about. ( I may have mistaken the exact term used for her.) My son said if she didn't exist, the LDS publishers would not have put that song in their hymnal. However, he also said that "she" is not talked about very much--probably, he mused, as a way of respecting her (since people may talk disrespectfully about her.)

God bless,
Selah*
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

Jill
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Post by Jill » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:39 pm

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Last edited by Jill on Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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selah
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Re: Questions for Mormons

Post by selah » Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:19 pm

Jill wrote:selah,

Your son is as the LDS General Authority in Salt Lake City Utah are, and you are so lucky to have him. I am not a convert, born into a devout and genealogically connected family, and still active. Having been born into a Temple sealed LDS family and a church pre-chosen for me, I have some LDS inequities and irritations which possibly come out in my posts. I am still LDS, Salt Lake City Ut oriented, but sometimes about ready to, by my own authority, throw in the towel. "The Church" is not a group of men unknown to its members and unvoted for, continuing to make absurd declarations, taking the tithing intended for the poor and spend it on themselves freely. Ive enjoyed The Narrow Path live radio show so much, and am very glad to have met many of you. Selah, your son said that Joseph Smith had made the comment "As God once was man now is, and as God is now man may become" and he did not. That was my point. Also the Roman Catholic tradition has a grand history of many of the very same attributes as the Salt Lake City Utah group takes on as its own, and by the same free ticket named : 'continuing revelation'. There most certainly are not many factions nor sects of the LDS Salt Lake City Utah group, ONLY ONE, and all General Conference Addresses, lesson manuals, and enforced local policy manuals come out of the very same one official Salt Lake City dictatorship.

The OP: Questions for Mormons by lee, was post dated quite awhile ago. We might have to PM lee for some more of his super great inquries.
Hi Jill, I just want to say that I am working on a reply to this post. My life challenges frequently result in my not posting here but I am thinking about what you wrote and have a partial response written down. I plan to submit it as soon as I feel it is adequate to the subject.

Take care, and as we agree, enjoy TNP!

Selah*
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

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selah
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Re: Questions for Mormons

Post by selah » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:12 pm

Jill wrote: selah,

Your son is as the LDS General Authority in Salt Lake City Utah are, and you are so lucky to have him.
Hi Jill, finally I am back to post! :lol:

He's really easy to talk with about his faith, but I miss praying with him. Do you pray with your LDS family members? It is probably more likely that families do that together if you have been in the membership all of your lives.
Jill wrote: I am not a convert, born into a devout and genealogically connected family, and still active. Having been born into a Temple sealed LDS family and a church pre-chosen for me, I have some LDS inequities and irritations which possibly come out in my posts. I am still LDS, Salt Lake City Ut oriented, but sometimes about ready to, by my own authority, throw in the towel. "
Thanks for being clear about your irritations toward the organized LDS church. I'm curious to know what stops you from throwing in the towel.
Jill wrote: The Church" is not a group of men unknown to its members and unvoted for, continuing to make absurd declarations, taking the tithing intended for the poor and spend it on themselves freely.


Oh yes, this bothers me about so many denominations. I once left a "spirit filled" denomination, in part because I discovered the money was spent on the "prophets" $750,000 personal homes. And I find most denominations emulate the RC decor and customs to one extent or the other, etc. etc..
Jill wrote: Ive enjoyed The Narrow Path live radio show so much, and am very glad to have met many of you. Selah, your son said that Joseph Smith had made the comment "As God once was man now is, and as God is now man may become" and he did not. That was my point. Also the Roman Catholic tradition has a grand history of many of the very same attributes as the Salt Lake City Utah group takes on as its own, and by the same free ticket named : 'continuing revelation'.
I agree; I thought of the RC church too, and then I think the Jehovah Witnesses also believe in continuing revelation. The more I have thought about it, the more I realize that Penticosts do too, and so do SDA---to a point. Most of the SDA that I have discussed this with believe EGW was the last prophet, but some still adhere to the ongoing prophetic word. In fact, I think more than a few different denominations believe in "continuing revelation"
Jill wrote: There most certainly are not many factions nor sects of the LDS Salt Lake City Utah group, ONLY ONE, and all General Conference Addresses, lesson manuals, and enforced local policy manuals come out of the very same one official Salt Lake City dictatorship.
That is amazing that you call it a dictatorship. Are you saying that the top LDS leadership are tricking followers like my son to believe the leadership cares for the common man? I'm sure my son would say the leadership are sincere....

I find it puzzling that you and my son don't agree on the number of factions (he used the word "sects"). Maybe you're thinking once a sect or faction is formed, they are no longer LDS even if they call themselves something similar? (like "The Reformed LDS" or the "Fundamental LDS" ?) I would like to hear what you think.
Jill wrote: The OP: Questions for Mormons by lee, was post dated quite awhile ago. We might have to PM lee for some more of his super great inquries.
I miss Lee's input on this thread, but I would like to ask you the same question that I called Steve about on this Thursday's NP radio program. I tried to articulate my question as this: Since we can identify at least several denominations that actively believe in "continuing revelation" and it seems a consensus that we reject "continuing revelation" in these denominations, then what differentiates the non-Messianic Jew apart from these? In other words, what would you say to a Jew who rejects the diety of Jesus Christ based on his refusal to believe in the "continuing revelation" that Paul and the disciples introduced?

Back to LDS: My son bases his belief in "continuing revelation" on the Bible. For example, he uses the scripture in Isaiah, I believe, about the two sticks to support his acceptance of the BoM. And there is one verse about baptising the dead to support his belief there. Then there's one verse about all men being sons of God to support more LDS doctrine. I've tried to put myself in the mindset of an LDS and I can see how the Bible verses can lead to an acceptance of an "expanding" or "further explanation" of the scripture, especially if your ancestors died for it and crossed the US wilderness to refuge in Utah Valley (like my daughters-in-law fifth generation family-line did). I mean, when someone says a statement over and over, year after year, generation after generation, it can begin to seem so right.

It appears that some denominations take one verse and make deep-rooted theology out of it. What do you think? How much scriptural support (or how many verses in favor of...) do you think it takes to support an entire theological concept or foundational practice within a denomination? (I wonder what Lee thinks...or anyone else reading this. Please post if you can! :)

Thanks. Take care, Jill! God bless!
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

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mkprr
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Re: Questions for Mormons

Post by mkprr » Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:46 am

Lee, you ask some great questions and Selah I appreciated your response. I am on spring break from school so I have a little more spare time than usual and would like a shot at giving you a straight answer if I can from my perspective. I don’t proclaim to be an LDS theologian by any stretch of the term but I am an active member of the church and I love the scriptures. Below is my understanding of these questions as short answers, and then below that I will attempt to give more background and detail. Please let me know what questions you have, but keep in mind my schedule is unfortunately quite restrictive right now.
1.How many gods are there?
1, 3, or more depending on what angle you approach the question from. See below for more information.

2. Did God work His way up to being God?
I can see this statement as being vaguely reconcilable with LDS doctrine but it doesn’t represent the teaching very well. So, yes, kind of sort of in a way, but see below for more information.

3. Can we (you, me, anyone) become a god?
Yes in that we can become one with Christ as Christ is one with the Father see more details below.

4. Are the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl of the Great Price all divinely inspired?
Yes See below for more information, please read this answer first because it is important in understanding the answers to your other questions.

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mkprr
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Re: Questions for Mormons

Post by mkprr » Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:49 am

Detailed answer to question number 4. Are the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl of the Great Price all divinely inspired?

The Old and New Testament, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price makeup what we call the “standard works”, or canonized scripture. They are all divinely inspired, or in the case of Doctrine and Covenants, which contains some chapters that are merely declarations of faith, a more accurate description might be “divinely approved”. It is also important to note that we understand the canon of scripture to be opened, meaning that we are willing to accept new revelations to our current set of scriptures if the Lord commands.

The Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith (not to be confused with (Joseph Smith Jr) made a distinction between the general sermons or teachings of the leaders of Church and those found in the canonized scriptures.

"It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teaching of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man's doctrine.

"You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards in doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works.

"Every man who writes is responsible, not the Church, for what he writes. If Joseph Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations, then every member of the Church is duty bound to reject it. If he writes that which is in perfect harmony with the revealed word of the Lord, then it should be accepted." (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. III, p. 203 - 204.)

In the spirit of open thought and discourse that Joseph Smith always encouraged, many interesting doctrines have been put forth over the years by the elders and leaders of the church. Many ideas and questions raised have led to further revelations, many remain simply as speculation, and others have been examined and found to be at odds with the teachings of the scriptures and dutifully rejected. Critics of the church often mine for statements by the leaders of the church over the years that are out of harmony with the scriptures in an attempt to create straw arguments that are easier to attack. Understanding what we consider to be scripture is important. In another sense, we believe that anything spoken by anyone under the influence of the Holy Ghost may be worthy of the title scripture, however it would need to be tested by an appeal to the standard works cited above and would only be added to the standard works if it was necessary to publish to all the world.

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mkprr
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Re: Questions for Mormons

Post by mkprr » Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:50 am

Detailed answer to question 1. How many gods are there? And question 3. Can we (you, me, anyone) become a god?

The answers to these questions go hand in hand and the answer depends on the angle you approach them from. Let me try to explain to the best of my understanding. I am aware that the LDS idea of God is different than all other denominations’ understanding is but as far as I can tell, the LDS view doesn’t contradict the Bible’s teachings on the subject.

From the first point of view, the LDS scriptures emphatically teach that there is only one God as explained by Isaiah in the old testament. “I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me.” Numerous extra biblical LDS scriptures attest to this as well. The oneness of God is reiterated continuously throughout LDS theology. Here is a short list of examples of this doctrine as taught in our extrabiblical scripture. (2 Ne 31:21, Mosiah 15:2-5, Alma 11:44; 2 Ne 11:27,36; Morm.7:7 D&C 20:28; 35:2; 50:43; 93:3. ) You can look these up at http://www.lds.org
The LDS theology of the nature of God differs from many other Christian views in that in one sense the Father Son and Holy Ghost are understood also as being three separate Persons who continue to have individual identities and distinct separate form. Each of these three is God and therefore in this sense we believe in three Gods. (D&C 130:22-23) There is obviously a contradiction here if the oneness of God referred to earlier is a oneness of substance, but as we understand it, it isn’t. It is instead a oneness in unity, will, desire, power, knowledge, righteousness, eternal nature etc. There is a link and real oneness between the Father Son and Holy Ghost but they also retain their own individuality. This is perhaps best understood by the way that Jesus Christ compares the oneness that we as his followers will gain, to the oneness He enjoys with the father: “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:” (john 17:20-21). Another way to understand how we can reconcile the oneness of God with the understanding that there are 3 Gods is by the way Adam and Eve became “one flesh”. God Himself even referred to both Adam and Eve together as simply "Adam," according to Genesis 5:2. We of course understand that Adam and Eve, and all married couples retain their individual identities despite their oneness after marriage.
Furthermore, LDS scripture states that those who accept Jesus Christ become the sons of God and will eventually inherit all that Jesus Christ and the Father have. “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.” (Revelation 2:21) A revelation given to Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon in Feb 1832 further describes the state of those after the resurrection who had endure to the end in Jesus Christ: “Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s. And they shall overcome all things.” (D&C 76:58-59)
In this sense we will be gods if we follow Jesus Christ. (the lower case “g” is theologically important to us in this passage) Looking at this perspective, there potentially will be numerous gods. We will not be worshipping them but we would worship The Father and the Son along with them. We understand that the realization of these promises will take place after the final judgment and resurrection.

Finally I would note that the term god in the KJV Bible is used from time to time to describe judges (psalm 82:6 and John 10:34), the prophet Moses (Exodus 7:1,) and even the devil (2 Corinthians 4:4) In this sense we also believe there are more gods than one but I think this is more a case of semantics than anything else. 19th century Mormons used the term god in these ways regularly and those who like to attack the church often take these types of statements out of context. We only Worship the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

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mkprr
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Re: Questions for Mormons

Post by mkprr » Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:51 am

Detailed answer to question 2. Did God work His way up to being God?
Joseph Smith did teach that God "worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 347). But this does not say that He had to work out His personal salvation, nor does it mean that He ever had to overcome personal sins, our scriptures are plain that He certainly did not. Our scriptures teach that he is eternal and unchanging.
It is true that Orson Pratt's old book The Seer states that God the Father was once a sinner, but Pratt's book was denounced by the First Presidency of the Church in 1865. It is not a reliable source of doctrine, and certainly is not one of the Standard Works, and does not represent LDS doctrine.

You may have also heard the term “As man is, God was; as God is man may become” Although this phrase isn’t found in any LDS scripture, it is generally accepted among the church I think as being an accurate and true statement.

The statement about God being as man is in reference to Jesus Christ who was once a mortal man (Acts 2:22, Romans 5:15, 1 Timothy 2:5) In this sense one might say the man Jesus worked up to being God “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.” (Luke 2:52), but it must also be kept in mind that he already was God before becoming a man. (Isaiah 43:11-12) We don’t know the history of God the Father but we do know that Jesus Christ was sent to do what he has seen his Father do (John 5:19) and for this reason Joseph Smith and others thought it was reasonable to suppose that anything true of the Son is also true of the Father.

Any statements by Joseph Smith or others exploring along this line of reasoning must also be interpreted in light of our scripture which states “there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them; And that he created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them; And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship.” (D&C 20:17-19)

Hopefully these answers are helpful in understanding an LDS perspective.

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selah
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Re: Questions for Mormons

Post by selah » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:00 am

mkprr, thank you very much for such a detailed outline of your beliefs in the posts above. Please do not remove them as I won't remember everything you wrote if you do! I want to reply....but, I admit my time is limited too, but I do want to review your posts again (I read all of them once) and plan to reply. Please have patience with me. I'm working long hours (four 24 hour shifts per week) and recuperating/trying to get moved during the other days...

May YHWH bless you through Jesus Christ! :) and may we both gain more truth by conversing over these questions!

selah*
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

lee
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Re: Questions for Mormons

Post by lee » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:17 pm

It's been a while since visiting the forum.
I was surprised to see the several posts in this thread.
I have read your responses, MKPRR, and I contend with you on each and every point you make, on Biblical grounds.

First and foremost, as in my original post, I notice that yes/no answers cannot be given without some sort of side note. Fortunately, God's word very clearly answers these questions.

To begin:

1.How many gods are there?
You said: "1, 3, or more depending on what angle you approach the question from. See below for more information."

You also quoted Isaiah 45:5, which states: "I am the Lord, and there is no other. There is no other God besides me."
Question: Is there or is there not another God besides Yahweh?
If you say yes, you contradict Isaiah. If you say no, then you must repent and denounce the LDS church.

2. Did God work His way up to being God?
You said: "I can see this statement as being vaguely reconcilable with LDS doctrine but it doesn’t represent the teaching very well. So, yes, kind of sort of in a way, but see below for more information."

You must clearly read Isaiah 43:10, which states: "Before me there was no God formed, and there will be none after me."
Question: Did God have a father who is also a God?
If you say yes, you contradict Isaiah again. If you say no, then you must repent and denounce the LDS church.

3. Can we (you, me, anyone) become a god?
You said: "Yes in that we can become one with Christ as Christ is one with the Father see more details below."

This of course relates to #2 above. If you believe that a man can become a God, then you contradict Isaiah.

4. Are the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl of the Great Price all divinely inspired?
You said: "Yes See below for more information, please read this answer first because it is important in understanding the answers to your other questions."

Unfortunately, you fail to realize that the canon was closed at the death of John the last of the 12 apostles. It is the 12 that the Holy Spirit brought into perfect recollection the terms of the gospel taught by Jesus (John 16:13). If you teach something contrary to the gospel taught by Jesus and the apostles, then you are anathema, utterly condemned to hell (Gal. 1:8).

Please read Ephesians 2:8: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God." That is very much different from what Joseph Smith taught: It is by grace you have been saved, after all YOU do. That, my friend, is blasphemy. You discount the merit of our Lord and God Jesus Christ in favor of your own merit and in the attempt to be a god. Please repent and stop spreading these lies.

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