How can you trust the Book of Momon

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SamMcNear
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Re: How can you trust the Book of Momon

Post by SamMcNear » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:54 pm

Looks like you are doing some good research, keep honestly searching for the truth and you will find it. The book of mormans contadicts the Bible so they are not compatible together. The book of mormans relies on the Bible but the Bible doesn't rely on the book of morman to be truth. Truth never contradicts. I just can't believe the book of mormans becuase it contradicts itself and the bible.

Sam

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mkprr
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Re: How can you trust the Book of Momon

Post by mkprr » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:00 am

Sam,

You ask some great questions. I’ll start from the bottom up if you don’t mind because those ones are easier to answer. :) I'll have to answer only one at a time. Before considering the answers that I provide to your questions I would suggest listening to Steve's lecture on dealing with Biblical problems. Take note especially of what he says about answers. I am paraphrasing here but this is the jist of the principle " It is not essential in the defense of scripture to determine how any given problem is to be resolved. It is enough to have a plausible explanation. There may be multiple possible explanations to the problem but one plausible solution removes all grounds to the charge that a contradiction exists." In other words, there may be other plausible answers to your questions, but here are the answers that make sense to me.
Why does the Book of Mormon state that Jesus was born in Jerusalem (Alma 7:10) when history and the Bible state that he was born outside of Jerusalem, in Bethlehem?
First please note that it doesn’t actually state that he was born in Jerusalem it says he will be born “at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers,”
I know, I know, it sounds like I’m straining at gnats here. The difference is actually pretty important though if you want to understand it.
I have never heard of an LDS person who doubted that Jesus was born in Bethlehem because there simply is no contradiction between the Bible and Book of Mormon on this topic when it is given more than just a quick glance.

To give a little background, this was a prophecy about Jesus Christ given at about 80 years before Jesus was born. Also it was given by a prophet that at the time lived in the western hemisphere but whose ancestors had migrated from the old world about 500 years previous. He himself wasn’t intimately acquainted with the Old World but he had access to many of the Old Testament scriptures and therefore Jerusalem was important to him.
Note that the place Jesus would be born is the “ Jerusalem... the of our forefathers" as opposed to the city of Jerusalem. The Book of Mormon peoples often described their own major cities by the term city, and the area surrounding those cities, including other smaller towns and "the land of" said city. The term the “land of Jerusalem” is also used over 30 times, and it is apparent from other passages that they were speaking of the general area similarly to how I would describe a trip to visit my Aunt in Lake Oswego as a trip to Portland (even though Lake Oswego is it’s own city). As you know, Bethlehem is about 6 miles or so away from the city of Jerusalem

As far as I know, the Bible never uses the term “Land of Jerusalem” it is an authentic ancient way of speaking though. One of the Dead Sea Scrolls (scroll 4Q385) which is ascribed to the prophet Jeremiah (the BOM prophet Lehi left around the time of Jeremiah so he would be using language similar to how people spoke during that time) uses the exact term “Land of Jerusalem” which in context was used to designate both the city of Jerusalem and the surrounding towns according to two non LDS scroll experts. (see Robert Eisenmann and Michael Wise, in The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered (1993) p 57-58, these are both non-mormon authors) Although this phrase wasn’t known as anciently authentic in Joseph’s day and he was mocked for it continuously, There seems to be no doubt about its authenticity today.

Interestingly, if Joseph Smith was a fraud, he certainly knew a LOT about the bible. It would be odd for him to be so accurate in other biblical events but get this one wrong. Instead however he used an ancient phrase to describe where Jesus was born that was unknown to his contemporaries but was in fact authentic and accurate. As a fraudulent author this doesn’t make much sense, as a translator it makes perfect sense.
Here is a good article on the subject for further clarification.
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... pts/?id=37

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SamMcNear
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Re: How can you trust the Book of Momon

Post by SamMcNear » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:39 pm

Back in the time of Joseph Smith almost everyone knew there Bible really well. But I still think he got lots wrong but that's for a future talk.

I can see your explanation for my question and it is a good one. I will erase that question from my list of why I'm not a Mormon which is much longer than just the Book of Mormon discrepancies.

thanks
Sam

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mkprr
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Re: How can you trust the Book of Momon

Post by mkprr » Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:14 pm

I will erase that question from my list of why I'm not a Mormon which is much longer than just the Book of Mormon discrepancies.
Ha, I'm sure your list is MUCH Longer! I recently listened to a podcast that Steve Gregg did on Mormonism from theeggbeater and I lost count of the problems he has with mormonism at about number 30 or so. :)

Now maybe you know how it feels for an atheist, or Jew or Muslim to look at Christianity. As a Christian you it's easy to see the problems they run into as insignificant because you understand so many of the solutions but to them there are so many that all seem so insurmountable that the thought of Christianity becomes almost silly.

I don't count on being able to remove all stumbling blocks from your way but I love the scriptures and I have noticed that those who listen to TNP love the scriptures too. As I understand it, the Book of Mormon is important scripture that has been inspired and approved by Jesus Christ and is extremely exciting to read if you can put doubts on the back burner. Maybe I can help you in at least a small way to do that. Maybe not but my love for the scriptures leaves me no choice, I can't help but try, its irresistible.

I'm working on your question about BOM changes next. It involves a more in depth answer so it might be a little while before I post again.

Thanks for putting forward these thoughtful questions.

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SamMcNear
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Re: How can you trust the Book of Momon

Post by SamMcNear » Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:18 pm

I look forward to see that answer. But I have to be up front and honest with you. I believe Joseph Smith is a false prophet. If what I believe is true then, according to the Bible this would nullify all his writings including the book of Mormons and all the writings follow his false teachings.

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mkprr
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Re: How can you trust the Book of Momon

Post by mkprr » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:15 am

Hey Sam, yes I agree, if Joseph Smith isn't a prophet the Book of Mormon isn't going to be scripture. I think though that a close look of the Book of Mormon is a great way to determine if Joseph Smith was in fact a prophet or not. We can't meet the guy, he is long since dead, but we can see the fruits of his labors when we take a close look at the Book of Mormon and after all, by their fruits you shall know them right?

Anyway, your question about the correctness of the book of Mormon and the 4000 changes in the book is a big question so I started a new thread to address it. I hope to talk to you there.

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Paidion
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Re: How can you trust the Book of Momon

Post by Paidion » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:02 pm

What are you doing, Jill?
.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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mkprr
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Re: How can you trust the Book of Momon

Post by mkprr » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:44 am

If the Book of Mormon was engraved on gold plates thousands of years ago, why does it read in perfect 1611 King James Version English?
This is a good question and I believe it has two answers. The English version of the Book of Mormon is a translation of an ancient text and was translated in the way Joseph Smith, under inspiration from God, found most appropriate. A similar question might be, why is it that God chose to prophesy through Isaiah via Jewish poetry instead of in their common speech? Although I can only speculate, in my opinion, this is because God reveals truth to his prophets who use in part their own skills, education, and preferences to convey that truth in the language of man.

In Joseph Smith’s day, the KJV was the most used and most revered English translation of the Bible. The language of the KJV was different than the everyday speech but it was also the English text that many people, Joseph Smith included, used as they learned to read. Understanding this it would be natural for Joseph Smith to translate using the most reverent form of speech with which he was familiar.

I think a second reason for the use of the KJV English is that one of the Book of Mormon’s stated purposes is to convince mankind of the truthfulness of the Biblical record. (see 1st Nephi 13:39) In short, when the BOM quotes Old Testament passages and they are almost identical to what we find in the KJV Old Testament, this shows us how well preserved the Old Testament that we have is. If the Book of Mormon didn’t use KJV style, this important insight wouldn’t be as obvious.

lee
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Re: How can you trust the Book of Momon

Post by lee » Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:40 pm

One cannot trust the book of Mormon because it is not revelation from God. The foundation of the church is upon the Old Testament, which prophesies Jesus, on Jesus Himself, and upon the 12 apostles, whom Jesus Himself gave authority. The canon of written revelatory inscripuration ceased at the death of the last apostle, John. If anyone believes that there is "new" scripture that has been revealed, there is absolutely no way to trust it. It is all arbitrary, with a side dish of "New Testament corruption" conspiracy theories. In any case, it's either pick the book of Mormon, the Quran, or any other "new" revelation. Those interested in the logical fallacies of the LDS church may want to engage on this topic http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... a&start=10

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mkprr
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Re: How can you trust the Book of Momon

Post by mkprr » Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:25 pm

Lee,

Thanks for your input, I am interested in learning more about what you mean. You stated:
The canon of written revelatory inscripuration ceased at the death of the last apostle, John.
I'm curious as to where you are getting this idea from. What scripture have read that you interpret to mean this? If you are thinking of Revelation 22:18-19 please explain how you justify extrapolating these verses to mean that the entire canon of scripture is closing with the death of John.

If you aren't getting this idea from some other passage please share it with us.

I will try to find time over the next few days to discuss with you on the other thread as well.

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