How can you trust the Book of Momon

lee
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Re: How can you trust the Book of Momon

Post by lee » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:56 pm

Rightly said, Sam :-)

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mkprr
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Re: How can you trust the Book of Momon

Post by mkprr » Sat May 07, 2011 2:13 am

lee wrote:
“Now, tell us, why should someone accept the Book of Mormon and not the Quran? Both were allegedly sent from God to correct Christianity. A "burning in the bosom" doesn't count.”

In a short forum entry I can’t explain why you should accept the Book of Mormon, but I can tell you why you shouldn’t dismiss it with such haste.

I am no expert on the Koran so I can’t say much on the subject but as I understand it the Koran does not teach that Jesus was divine, or that he was the Son of God. The Koran also doesn’t teach that Jesus died as a sacrifice for our sins but that Allah saved him before he died and took Jesus up to him alive. The Koran doesn’t teach that Jesus atoned for our sins or that we even need a savior. You can find more info here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_Islam

Paul, Silas and Timothy exhort us to “Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophecyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good” 1 thess 5:19-21 The Koran appears to be in complete and direct contradiction to the entire gospel message taught by Paul and the other apostles 1 Cor 15:1-5. We can’t hold fast to that, it clearly is not good. The Book of Mormon does not contradict the gospel message taught by the New Testament writers but affirms it. Here are just a few out of hundreds of examples:
“ Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.” 2 Nephi 2:8
“Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.
And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.” 2nd Nephi 29:8-9
The title page of the Book of Mormon also explains that it was:
“Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation…to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations”
In fact the entire Book is loaded with witness after witness of the same gospel taught by Paul and the other authors of the New Testament. The Book of Mormon spans a history of over 1000 years written by people who looked forward to the Messiah, and prophesied of Jesus Christ. Granted, this in and of itself doesn’t necessarily mean it is true, but it certainly means it can’t be haphazardly thrown out.
1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1 John 4: 1-3
This, in accordance with the further clarification in verses 9-10, clearly condemns the Koran yet upholds the Book of Mormon.
Last edited by mkprr on Sat May 07, 2011 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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mkprr
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Re: How can you trust the Book of Momon

Post by mkprr » Sat May 07, 2011 2:22 am

Lee, I apologize for assuming earlier you may have had verses from John’s book of Revelation in mind in support of your claim to a closed cannon of scripture. I truly am interested in understanding you point of view and see that I wasn't doing a good job of that. It’s not helpful to open dialog for me to make assumptions like that hopefully you accept my apology. I have been studying the other passages you listed in support of a closed cannon view trying to see where you are coming from and I have a few more questions for you when you have time to answer.
You said “Acts 8 reveals that God chose only 12 apostles to indwell with the Holy Spirit in such a way as to provide inerrancy in miraculous work and divine inscripturation.”

Would you mind elaborating how this text has led you to this conclusion? The word “only” leaves me especially stumped. I see this text is clear that individuals don’t get to make up their own rules for how authority is given and received. However, the power that the former sorcerer wanted to buy with money in this chapter was the power to give the Holy Ghost to others. We know that this authority was clearly shared among more than just the apostles (note that Ananias has this power and authority as well in the next chapter and doesn’t seem to be on that list of the 12 apostles in Matt 10:2) It however wasn’t something that he bought for money I presume.

After reading Acts 8 multiple times I don’t see anything in the chapter that would lead me to understand the 12 apostles were the only ones able to provide “inerrancy in miraculous work and divine inscripturation”. Neither scripture writing, inerrancy, or anything similar to them are mentioned are they? Are you getting this idea because Phillip preached Jesus to the Ethiopian? Again I don’t want to assume wrongly where you are getting these ideas so you’ll have to explain. Also, if the 12 apostles were the only ones able to write scripture that would certainly leave Paul out wouldn’t it?

Also, you say “Obviously, John 16:12-15 deals with the inspirational work of the Holy Spirit within the written work and dictation of the 12 apostles.” I see that this passage would certainly apply to the 12 apostles. What I can’t figure out is where you are finding reason to restrict the Holy Spirit from working in anyone outside of the original 12 to write or speak scripture. Likewise the other verses you quote certainly give us reason to trust in the authority of the 12, but I don’t see where they hint at an era where God would stop speaking authoritatively through his servants.

I hope you don’t see these questions as my way of attacking your point of view. For all I know you POV is completely scriptural but so far I am not following your reasoning from the verses sighted. I certainly agree with you that all authority is Jesus’ and that the church is built upon his chosen servants the prophets, and apostles with Jesus being the chief cornerstone.

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mkprr
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Re: How can you trust the Book of Momon

Post by mkprr » Sat May 07, 2011 2:26 am

Paidon,

You made some interesting points about accurately judging prophecy and I’ll have to keep them in mind as I read through the scriptures, thanks for sharing that insight. Another thing I have noticed while studying the ancient prophets is that many prophecies were fulfilled in ways that the contemporary Jews didn’t seem to be expecting. Jesus as the Messiah is probably the most important example of this. The Jews had been building up traditions for what their Messiah would be like based on their interpretation of prophecy that were so different from Jesus that many of them sadly didn’t recognize Him and still don’t today. It seems that keeping an open mind is key to accurately understanding prophecy in scripture.

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mkprr
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Re: How can you trust the Book of Momon

Post by mkprr » Sat May 07, 2011 2:29 am

Sam,
You stated
“True prophets today would not contradict what God already said in the Bible”
and you said
“I think prophets will never add to God's Word, only confirm or give insight to it or talk of future events and all this to edify the Body of Christ.”
I certainly agree that true prophets would not contradict what God already said in the Bible. However, one doesn’t have to read the gospels long to see Jesus Christ himself being judged wrongly as a false prophet and blasphemer by the religious leaders of His day because His teachings contradicted popular interpretations of scripture. Being a prophet of God has always been a hazardous occupation in part for this reason. (Jesus of course was much more than just a prophet but he was a prophet also)

As far as adding scripture, wouldn’t any further prophetic insight into what the Bible says, or any warning of future events rightly be considered an addition to scripture? If not how do you define the difference? I certainly agree that adding to the word of God is wrong for man to do, but Jesus is the Word, so if he sees fit to raise up a servant to proclaim His will at any time I am all ears (after first scrutinizing his/her claims of a prophetic call of course).

I see no justification in stating the canon is closed. In fact, unless it can be proven that the scriptures themselves state or even strongly imply that they are closed, proclaiming such a statement would itself be adding to scripture would it not?

lee
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Re: How can you trust the Book of Momon

Post by lee » Sat May 07, 2011 9:56 am

Wow. That's a lot of posting! I just wanted to write something brief to let you know that I'll be reading it and responding this weekend. Thanks for posting, and I look forward to a nice discussion :-)

lee
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Re: How can you trust the Book of Momon

Post by lee » Sat May 07, 2011 7:39 pm

I also wanted to say, mkprr, that I appreciate your sincerity and amiableness in your posts, which, in light of several of my most recent web-forum exchanges in a few online grad classes at a secular university, is quite refreshing. Thank you.

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SamMcNear
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Re: How can you trust the Book of Momon

Post by SamMcNear » Sat May 07, 2011 9:11 pm

mkprr,
you said
I see no justification in stating the canon is closed. In fact, unless it can be proven that the scriptures themselves state or even strongly imply that they are closed, proclaiming such a statement would itself be adding to scripture would it not?
The justification for not adding to scripture is there is no one with the authority to add more to the scripture. The prophets of the old testament had the authority and those who had direct contact with Jesus or the apostles, had the authority. No one after John meets that criteria.

Adding to the Bible is different than a prophet speaking today. because there is no reason to add anything to the Bible. The Bible is complete.

-Sam
Last edited by SamMcNear on Wed May 11, 2011 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lee
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Re: How can you trust the Book of Momon

Post by lee » Sun May 08, 2011 7:45 am

Sam, that quote about the state of the canon is not from me. Please change it to mkprr...

lee
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Re: How can you trust the Book of Momon

Post by lee » Sun May 08, 2011 8:57 am

Alright…

Concerning Islam:

Mkprr, your statements concerning the Quran are correct. However, my question still stands. Here is the question again, with 1 related question:

1. If Mohammed was given the allegedly divine Quran in private by Gabriel, and Joseph was given the allegedly divine BOM in private by Moroni, why should we reject one and not the other?
2. Given that 1) both Islam and LDS defer to their post-Biblical documents as superior and 2) count inconsistencies of the Bible with their post-Biblical documents as corruptions in the Biblical text, why should the BOM be accepted while the Quran is rejected?

-

Concerning inconsistencies between the BOM and the Bible:

This passage does not speak about a ‘burning in the bosom,’ but rather ‘proving’ truth through the utter demolish of arguments and pretensions that are set up against the knowledge of God in the same manner as Paul (2 Cor. 10:5). You respond accordingly to Islam, but why not inspect the BOM’s inconsistencies with the Bible? I would like to present one such inconsistency which does not seem to be mere semantics, a technicality, or peripheral to the gospel, but extremely serious as it concerns God’s revelation to His people:

2 Timothy 3:16-17: “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for EVERY good work.”

Paul (2 Tim. 3:16-17), Peter (2 Pet. 1:3, 2 Pet. 3:16), Jude (Jude 1:3), and Jesus Himself (Matt 24:35) unambiguously express that at the time of Jesus and the apostles, the OT and the NT (which was then currently being inscripturated [2 Pet. 3:16]), were sufficient for the believer to come to completeness in godliness.

However, the Book of Mormon scorns the believer and his Bible (2 Nephi 29:3), erroneously attributes the writing of the Bible to the Jews (2 Nephi 29:4-6; the Jews as such did not produce the NT, as the Jewish nation was cut off and no longer a covenant people), and, most importantly of all, alleges that the Bible does not contain all the words of God necessary for man’s spiritual sustenance and completeness (2 Nephi 29:10,11). This is obviously contrary to what the Bible says of itself.

A second serious inconsistency is the ancestry of Melchizedek, as this relates to the prophetic utterances concerning Jesus. Some even think that Melchizedek was an early manifestation of Jesus Himself. But concerning the prophecy, Hebrews 7:1-3 affirms that Melchizedek was without father, mother, and descent, harkening to the eternal self-existence of Jesus as an uncreated being. However, Alma 13:18 states that Melchizedek had a father.

-

Concerning apostolic authority:

Acts 8 reveals a special apostolic authority in the administration of the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit for the early ministry of the newborn church. Philip, though capable of performing miracles, had to call for the actual apostles, Peter and John, in order to confer gifts upon believers in Samaria. Therefore, at the death of the apostles and their similarly aged predecessors would the specific miraculous gifts have ceased.

Paul was specifically chosen by Jesus (Acts 9), met the apostolic requirements (Acts 1:21-22), miraculously proved his apostolic authority (2 Cor. 12:12), and I would argue replaced Judas, as the apostles acted prematurely and in haste, whereas, again, Jesus specifically chose Paul, as He did His other apostles.

Therefore, Paul’s writing are authoritative, just as Peter declares (2 Pet. 3:16).

-

Concerning the canon:

I hope that you see that the church is built upon the “foundation of the apostles and prophets” with “Jesus himself is the cornerstone.”

You have two options: Either 1) the foundation has been built and the church and her the scriptures by which she is to continue is complete and has been preserved, or 2) a foundation is still being laid (and thus incomplete and unstable) upon which a church has been constructed for over 2000 years. Which option do you choose?

-

Conclusion:

In the context of the above notes, I summarize my questions:
1. How can you accept the BOM over the Quran?
2. How can you accept the BOM over the Bible?
3. How can you accept Joseph Smith over the apostles?
4. How can you accept an open canon over a closed canon?

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