an lds on: By What Authority?

Jill
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Post by Jill » Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:57 pm

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selah
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by selah » Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:03 pm

karenprtlnd wrote:
karenprtlnd wrote: Selah-....... Please be a bit careful in quoting, and re-wording things in previous posts, and inserting foriegn ideas and terminology......
I apologize.
Karen my sister! :D You did not offend me; I refuse to be offended! However, I thought you were trying to teach me something though, so I was waiting to hear how to be careful on this forum before proceeding with you. I am learning new things from others about the forum and pray to be a blessing. This is my prayer: To be "...gentle among you, just as a nursing mother cherishes her children, so affectionately longing for you, ...well pleased to impart to you not only the gospel of God, but also our own lives, because you had become dear...for you remember our labor and toil, for laboring night and day that we might not be a burden to any of you, we preached to you the gospel of God." Karen, I have always had an abundance of mothering love so this verse was a joy to discover and a prayer to remember in any situation. :)

I plan to go re-read your last post now, and let's talk about......God's Authority! :D
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

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selah
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by selah » Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:35 am

karenprtlnd wrote:Selah- I am so late in checking back. I don't maintain a personal computer at home, so I havn't explored modems, but your comments were very insightful. Thank-you. :)

Please be a bit careful on quoting, and re-wording things in previous posts, and inserting foriegn ideas and terminology, but all in all, the KJV and the NKJV may not be that much of a problem. I use the KJV. It's been a classic. It supposedly was done in 1600 England, and it is devoid of the bias of present day denominationalism. It has often been used by translators as a classic comparison for a very long time. It is the LDS standard, but many versions seem to convey the same text quite similarly. I tend to stick with the KJV however.

As there are no New Testament manuscripts in the [original hand] to be officially preserved, I do not at all find this a stumbling block in NT authenticity as read, nor of the multiple witness of events of Jesus Christ themselves, as discribed by a few of his choice disciples, in the original witness of Jesus Christ, Son of the one true living God, on earth. I also find the 14 letters of Saul/Paul to the churches, contemporary enough to the event of Christ and surrounding areas, to still hold the same authority as do those few manuscripts by His personal twelve.

The D&C is merely an abreviated chronology of the writings of Joseph Smith, JSHC (by Joseph Smith himself), which is often used instead, because it gives in more detail, surrounding circumstances of his writings. Included are the revelations, while the Urim and Thummim were still actually being used. The PGP,i.e. 1). the book of Moses, being a revelation by Joseph Smith while he was studying the books of Moses; and 2). the book of Abraham, which was rendered from papyri, offered by a traveling egyptian mummy show, seemingly as a personal favor, and was never intended as official church scripture until many years after the death of Joseph Smith at 38 years of age, in 1844. The book of LDS definitions and termenology, erroneously entitled "Mormon Doctrine" (to replace the BoM?) by its author Bruce R. McConkie, I personally felt, overstepped its bounds, in the tradition of his fathers era just a few years before. If your not LDS because of the book of Mormon, you may just be getting in the way of current debated issues finally getting resoved, unless you can explain how there can be an LDS Church without it.

The actual abridgement of records onto plates by use of hieroglyphs, instead of hebrew on scrolls or cuneform, were said in the actual hand of Mormon, then end plates, of coarse by his son Moroni. They were translated by the actual "seer stones" that had been buried with the original plates themselves, and by the power of God. Meaning, that Joseph Smith had permission by God to do so, and if someone were to have just stumbled upon them, probably not have been able to get them to work. I will search and ask around for its, the plates and seer stones, return and transfer,(possibly back to their original owners ? ) as this might be of wide intrest to others, as well as to myself. I'll let you know.

That NO "original authored" manuscripts of the NT nor the BoM are at hand, has in no way gotten in the way, as a record of just this one people of JHVH, including the OT. Its entirety, as read, leads the reader always to God The Father, and His Son Jesus Christ, who, having been now resurrected, Lord of all the earth.

I believe that the LDS will become able to gladly conceed that The Bible and its people, are to be the agreed "authority" of Holy Scripture, in time, and through much practiced dialogue. I for one, have appreciate the many efforts of others and much patience.
Karen, I used the "quote" button twice in a row...! Wow! I'm getting better at this forum thing... :D
I use the KJV. It's been a classic. It supposedly was done in 1600 England, and it is devoid of the bias of present day denominationalism. It has often been used by translators as a classic comparison for a very long time. It is the LDS standard, but many versions seem to convey the same text quite similarly. I tend to stick with the KJV however.
I use the NKJV, but when I was six months pregnant with my oldest son (he's in his 30's) :) I worked two weeks at the 1971 summer SDA Southwestern Adventist Conference as a secretary. For those two weeks, I earned just enough $ to buy a small KJV Bible that I could hide in my clothes if/when the "Time of Trouble" came upon us. I still have that Bible. Even through all the 24 years that I thought Christianity was the wrong religion, I kept that Bible. Now, it rests in the tray between the bucket seats of my car. Now that I have been a Christian for ten years (therefore, having read the NKJV through end to end four times and studied it some too) the KJV is not so hard to understand anymore. My NKJV is very marked up though, so it is still my favorite of the two---although the KJV is my favorite for sentimental reasons. :)

Anyway, if you have checked out "Writings and Essays," I have been in brief communication with Paidion about the subject of correct---or incorrect---translations of the New Testament. He is opening my eyes to a subject that I had only a glimmer of information about in the past. I knew there are certain Greek and Hebrew words that were translated incorrectly or perhaps irresponsibly, but now I am wondering just HOW MUCH of the KJV and subsequently the NKJV might be in need of special consideration. Ultimately, I want to begin what I think will be a pursuit lasting the rest of my life, that being to learn enough Greek and Hebrew words (I won't flatter myself pretending to learn the languages, just some key words...) to look at all of the various meanings of those words and then, pray, asking to see which meaning the author meant. For example, I would like to learn what the original Hebrew word was for the word "praise," which as I have understood, may have several different meanings such as to honor, venerate, worship, glorify, extol or sing jubilantly ("yobel")to God. If there turns out to be only one original Hebrew word for "praise", then it would appear that the reader (you and me) must depend upon the Holy Spirit and context of scripture to define its meaning in a given passage. So I believe that knowing the root words and their meanings would help assign accurate meaning to the scripture. Another example that I have not done full research on is the word "helper" found in Genesis. The original Hebrew word has been said to be "ezer." While it is used to describe woman or wife in Genesis, it is used in 20 other passages of the OT. Here are a few examples:
"Blessed are you, O Israel! Who is like you, a people saved by the Lord? He is your shield and "ezer" and your glorious sword." Deut. 33:26, 29
"I lift up my eyes to the hills---where does my help come from? My "ezer" comes from the Lord, the Maker of heaven and earth." Ps. 121:1-2
"May the Lord answer you when you are in distress; may the name of the God of Jacob protect you. May he send you 'ezer.' " Ps. 20:1-2
"We wait in hope for the Lord, He is our "ezer" and our shield." Ps. 33:20

From what I remember learning, of all those 20 times that the word "ezer" is used in the OT, it is referring to God helping humanity in distress or danger. Only in Genesis is the word "ezer" used to refer to "wife." Somewhere in this research, I learned the word "Kenegdo" means to come along beside, or opposite to, or to be a counterpart to. My notes are not clear, but I believe the word "kenegdo" is somewhere in Genesis too. If a woman understands the various nuances of these words and their meanings, do you think she could re-align her understanding of her importance as a wife? Indeed, rather than the wife viewing herself as second-class within the marriage, (Many Christian woman feel this way, especially if they are stay-at-home mom's/wives or if they must submit to husband--which we all should do!...) she can realize that she is a crucial "kenegdo" or "counterpart" to her husband, "coming along beside him" and at times "shielding" him, "protecting" him, or even "saving" him from danger. :D When I learned the different meanings of these few words, I believe that my thoughts on the matter became more "obedient to Jesus Christ." II Cor. 10:5b (paraphrased)

That was alot to say about the translation of the KJV and NKJV. Sorry to get sidetracked with my examples. :geek:
As there are no New Testament manuscripts in the [original hand] to be officially preserved, I do not at all find this a stumbling block in NT authenticity as read, nor of the multiple witness of events of Jesus Christ themselves, as discribed by a few of his choice disciples, in the original witness of Jesus Christ, Son of the one true living God, on earth. I also find the 14 letters of Saul/Paul to the churches, contemporary enough to the event of Christ and surrounding areas, to still hold the same authority as do those few manuscripts by His personal twelve.
Yes, I would generally agree. We can confidently learn from the four accounts of Jesus' life by the four writers of the Gospels. In addition, we can be confident in Paul's authoritative words because Acts 9:13-30 outlines the story whereby Ananias, the disciples, Barnabas and even the Jews received his words as from the Lord Jesus Christ.
The D&C is merely an abreviated chronology of the writings of Joseph Smith, JSHC (by Joseph Smith himself), which is often used instead, because it gives in more detail, surrounding circumstances of his writings. Included are the revelations, while the Urim and Thummim were still actually being used. The PGP,i.e. 1). the book of Moses, being a revelation by Joseph Smith while he was studying the books of Moses; and 2). the book of Abraham, which was rendered from papyri, offered by a traveling egyptian mummy show, seemingly as a personal favor, and was never intended as official church scripture until many years after the death of Joseph Smith at 38 years of age, in 1844. The book of LDS definitions and termenology, erroneously entitled "Mormon Doctrine" (to replace the BoM?) by its author Bruce R. McConkie, I personally felt, overstepped its bounds, in the tradition of his fathers era just a few years before. If your not LDS because of the book of Mormon, you may just be getting in the way of current debated issues finally getting resoved, unless you can explain how there can be an LDS Church without it.

The actual abridgement of records onto plates by use of hieroglyphs, instead of hebrew on scrolls or cuneform, were said in the actual hand of Mormon, then end plates, of coarse by his son Moroni. They were translated by the actual "seer stones" that had been buried with the original plates themselves, and by the power of God. Meaning, that Joseph Smith had permission by God to do so, and if someone were to have just stumbled upon them, probably not have been able to get them to work. I will search and ask around for its, the plates and seer stones, return and transfer,(possibly back to their original owners ? ) as this might be of wide intrest to others, as well as to myself. I'll let you know.
Karen, with all due respect, I am not convinced of your claims as to the D&C and BoM having any authority to speak into human life. I have not seen nor heard the evidence to even indicate it is historically true, much less spiritually authentic. I could site my historical examples of reasons why I believe this way, but have purposefully prayed you and I build trust between the two of us before we look at such evidence. More than anything else, my hope, heart, and prayer is to (1.) keep the unity of faith, and (2) love all people rather they are believers or not. So you see, disagreeing about the authority of LDS scripture is not on my radar. I do in fact want us to both know, trust and obey truth!!!!! However, I have no need to be right at the expense of hurting your feelings. I read from your own posts that you believe as you do and I realize that you won't change your mind until or unless you see the truth because....like I think I remember you saying, you are a "truth seeker." Well, I am too. Let's do it together.

So, we are right back to where I started weeks ago, asking you what measurement will you accept to verify the authority of a given book?! Will our measure be only from within, as for example, Acts 9:13-30 claims itself to be referring to Paul as authoritative, or will you preview outside evidence such as history, anthropology and archeology, geography, biology and prophesy? May we seek an answer to a question I asked earlier? What and when was the fulfillment of a prophesy made from within the BoM? I honestly don't know of any and have never read about BoM prophesies, one way or the other. I am not biased on this. I am simply unfamiliar with any prophesies, so can you inform me of one? I do have evidence at hand to dispute the BoM on the matter of accurate history and biology. Would you like to hear it or have you already read about that on another thread? Would you like to lead me to another thread to read up on this matter?
That NO "original authored" manuscripts of the NT nor the BoM are at hand, has in no way gotten in the way, as a record of just this one people of JHVH, including the OT. Its entirety, as read, leads the reader always to God The Father, and His Son Jesus Christ, who, having been now resurrected, Lord of all the earth.
Will you present to me the evidence from the BoM, that might in fact, lead to the same Father, Son and Holy Spirit as the Bible teaches? It is my understanding that, on the one hand, we worship the same Jesus, except you believe Jesus made a trip to the now known United States, and on the other hand, I believe He ascended to heaven from "as far as Bethany." (Luke 24:50) Is it true that the BoM teaches things about Jesus that are exact contradictions to what the Bible teaches about Jesus?

Finally, if you read "The Case for Christ," by Lee Strobel, you will hear of evidence that I have found for believing the Who, what, when, where and how of Jesus Christ. Should we go through that book (on the forum, of course?) and then exact the same measurements to be used to authenticate Jesus Christ taught in the KJV as well as the BoM? (I can stick with the KJV from now on in my dialogue with you. ;) )

Thank you and remember, my first and foremost desire is NOT to win a debate (I don't know how anyway. :oops: ) but to be in fellowship with you, ever praying for both of us to be lead by the Holy Spirit into more of His spirit and truth. Be at peace in all things sister and I look forward to your answer on any aspect of this post that you want to. You lead...I reply... :D
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

Jill
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Post by Jill » Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:30 pm

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selah
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by selah » Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:25 am

Selah. Hi.

The NT will be fine.
This forum does alot of work on-with-by various translations and versions of the NT. This is fine and on going. This will continue well into the future I'm sure. There have been many versions and translations produced. My hope is that no one group is ever allowed to change or damage the only ancient manuscripts we might have left nor where they are kept. I have a KJV that I read. I think I might get car sick if I kept re-reading everchanging wordings over and over again, just for the sake of an argument. When a scripture is quoted, I wish to know what translation that the user has brought up. (KJV) or (RSV) for instance. I use the KJV but I am not freaked out by other translations. I simply use a KJV.
Hi Karen, We agree that various translations of the NT are used by many. My daughter just called me as I was writing this post and read something. It fits into our discussion. She shared that in II Cor. 3: 2,3 Paul states that "You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men, clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart." This scripture describes a translation, one that has not been discussed during my short time on this forum. I am grateful to be reminded of it because as we consider the options for scriptural translations, I think it is most important to remember that our very lives---the way we live our lives---is a translation to God's word too. People, Christians, non-believers and backsliders alike, will "read" our lives and get an impression of Christianity. Another verse my daughter pointed out is James 1:22, 23 "...be doers of the word, and not hearers only..." So the lesson she reminded me of is that our actions are a type of scriptural translation. Do our actions translate the NT accurately? That is a question that I ask myself.

We agree about the usability of the KJV. I may be reading from the RSV soon. More to come about the RSV if/when I read it...
There are many outside public sources in which to review the BoM, and argue it. There are also previously created topics in this LDS Religions & Philosophies section entitled "an lds view of :The Book of Mormon", "RE-Joseph Smith", and "an lds view of : LDS history and its writings". All these may interest a "By What Authority" argument.
Okay, I'll venture over to those threads and read some of them (or all of them eventually).
As for the BoM. The lds believe these people had left Jerusalem at 1st year Zedekiah, which would be around 2 Kings 24. This may or may not even come into play. They would have already left long before NT Jerusalem.


In the quote above, are you refering to the people leaving Jerusalem to come to the Americas? If so, where in the Bible does it say that the people left Jerusalem for the Americas at the 1st year Zedekiah? I previewed II Kings 24 but did not see the phrase "1st year Zedekiah." Did I miss seeing the phrase, or is it a concept not explicitly stated? Would you explain what you meant when you wrote "As for the BoM. The lds believe these people had left Jerusalem at 1st year Zedekiah..." because I am left wondering if your thinking this is when some of the children of Israel came to what is now known as the United States. This is really an important question in my mind because if the LDS are accurate about that, it needs to be stated in the Bible.
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

Jill
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Post by Jill » Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:30 pm

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selah
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by selah » Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:29 am

karenprtlnd wrote:Selah,

I posted my comments to the book of Mormon under that particular topic, as I am not requiring you to have read the book of Mormon in order to open up a discussion that will be primarily new testament based. Nor require reading any of the books that may have been suggested thus far, merely to engage in a conversation regarding the authority of the new testament. I need no proof that a present copy of a particular edition of a book actually exists before reading it nor require any kind of proof that it exists after having read it.

As for "By What Authority", there can be agreement from me to use the KJV of the new testament as primary and other translations of the new testament as secondary for sake conversation. What do you think about this?
Well Karen, when I finish this post, I will move over to the thread you mention and read about the BoM. I am a little bit confused though by some of what you say above. I thought we were engaged in establishing our reasons for agreeing that the Bible and the BoM are the authority by which we should be ruled.

It looks like from your quote above, that you are telling me you accept the NT and KJV. If this is the case, I agree that we can trust the NT and KJV. However, I think our reasons for trusting it differ. Let me explain why I believe this.

There are numerous prophesies in the OT that lead to the fulfillment that the NT describes the coming Messiah. All through the NT, we see cross-references to the OT. I could give you at least a dozen examples that come to mind right now and if we were to research the scriptures, we could probably come up with hundreds of cross references. Suffice it to say that these cross-references are important to substantiate the truth of the NT.
I need no proof that a present copy of a particular edition of a book actually exists before reading it nor require any kind of proof that it exists after having read it.
Someone with a good imagination can write a fascinating book, publish it on crinkly paper and bind it in soft leather and call it a scripture.

Karen, a soul as important to the kingdom as you are, you want to know the book is right, right? You want to know the book is from God, right?

We agree the NT is real. We agree we read it. We agree to believe what we read there.

But do you believe it is true because the OT prophesies point to it? Do you believe the NT is true because the OT was quoted by the NT writers, and Jesus Himself?

Karen, you stated that you "need no proof..." I can agree with your literal quote because I don't need proof before reading a book either or believing that it exists, but then our inquiry is not whether the NT, Bible or BoM exist. We agree they are real. They are on our shelf and in our hands. Of course they are real.

But the question of the hour is: What writings did the Creator of the Universe give us to rule our thinking and actions?
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

Jill
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Post by Jill » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:51 pm

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selah
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by selah » Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:06 pm

karenprtlnd wrote:Hi ! :)

So, a question of the hour......
What writings did the Creator of the Universe give us to rule our thinking and actions?
What writings


How about a new testament based conversation. I think we can already agree on the NT writings. However, if the KJV looks like it may become a problem for many on this forum, would someone like to make another suggestion at this point?
Yes, Karen, the question is something like this, Who says the BoM can give you instructions for your thoughts and actions? for your very life?! Who said "the glorified man" can give you instructions for your thoughts and actions? for your very life?

That is the question in my mind on the "By What Authority?" thread.

Karen, by reading your statement above it looks like you want to change the subject.

Seriously, my heart is pounding now with the "in your face" words that I am writing. I hold you dear in my heart but would feel like "milk toast" if I just patted you on the back and said something nice about the 'NT.

Oh I'm sorry, I am truely milk toast. I am afraid of rejection so I just deleted a statement to edit this post! :cry: ) I wanted to open your eyes, but alas, only the Holy Spirit can do that.

:| The below section has not been edited:

Forgive me, but I have a strong attraction to authority. I don't want to change either because there are many false religious views out there and I am one of the worst for suckering into them. I used to read this one, and that one, and this one, and that one, for years, and years, and years...are you getting tired of my babbling? Me too! and that is what fables are...babbling...and that is what I got real tired of while I entertained 24 years of fables...

When I came to Jesus, I KNEW that I would HAVE to KNOW where my authority comes from! That is why I read Lee Strobel's research, and the book "Evidence Demands a Verdict", and information about church history and Steve Gregg's teachings on "The Authority of Scripture."

Karen, I am sure a failure in so many things. I am a skeptic Christian who always says to other Christians, "Where in the Bible does it say that?" so me asking you the same question is not different. "Where in the Bible does it say ___________________?"

If I don't base every thought upon Jesus Christ and His word in the Bible, I would find myself in a world of anarchy "out there" just like I lived in for so many years. I need the foundation of scripture! Sister, show me some scripture :lol: (from the Bible) .... (that teaches LDS theology)

You have an opportunity to "prove" the LDS religion is true. Do you ask what "proof" I need? I hope you do. I will list what I need:

---verses from the Bible stating the theology the LDS believe.
---prophesies within the BoM that have come true.
---secular historical documents to cross-reference peoples, dates, places, pottery, trash heaps, etc. you know, things archeologists find in digs.
---science to find some Native Americans who have matching DNA to middle eastern peoples.
---old BoM plates, manuscripts, etc. anything to indicate that the book is NOT a fantacy.

Of course, I do not expect you, Karen, to have all of the answers or to know everything.

So how about this? If you will show me three, 3, just 3, shreds of evidence that the BoM is true, then I'll read the whole book! :mrgreen: wanna test me? :ugeek:

After the tension of this post, I must say,
" And He arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, 'Peace be still.' And the wind ceased and there was a great calm." (Mark 4:39 KJV)

Love in Jesus Christ, your sister in Jesus Christ, unity in Jesus Christ,
Selah*:o)
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

Jill
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Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:16 pm

Post by Jill » Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:25 pm

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