an lds on: By What Authority?

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selah
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Re: (an) lds on: By What Authority?

Post by selah » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:31 pm

Karen, I am so happy to be back online although not sure of its reliability. Even so, I will try to be online more frequently from now on. I did get on long enough to read and ponder your words and now am back to give you a brief introductory reply...
Once we establish the authority of scripture, then..... that I am not trinitarian is bound to come up. But for now.... let's establish authority of scripture, along with its credibility as you have suggested.
I also heard you on the radio program talking about the trinity and arion (sp?) theology. As for me, do not wonder if I will ever judge you. I have come out of SDA and have felt many many many times the sting of judgement. My prayer for you is the same as for my LDS children and myself--that the Holy Spirit leads us all into more of His truth.
Since we both read and study The Bible, why don't you go ahead and establish both its authority and its credibility. As if I've never heard of it, so I can understand your need to do so just a bit better. There are no original documents left on the earth today, nor any biographies of the translators commissioned to bring these things forth into english that, I know of. Authors of each of the 39 books of the old testament, and authors of each of the 27 books of the new testament may need to be established also for an even more sensitive criteria. Also, I use a KJV. Which translation do you prefer? We would need to agree on a translation I think so that would no longer enter in. (Arguments of which transtaltion of The Bible, is not within my grasp at present).
I am hoping others will join this thread because I feel that I have much to learn on the subject. I will share only one aspect of what little I know, in hopes that we can compare and contrast our understanding. There are about 5,000 secular historical documentations to "cross reference" the ancient Old Testament, meaning that there is secular evidence that the names, dates and places really existed. This type of evidence seems missing for the Book of Mormon. I don't know of any evidence in secular historical writings to verify that persons mentioned in the BOM really existed or were acknowledged as having lived. Is there such evidence and I have missed it? It is important to me that the OT, NT, and/or BOM would be factual in their historical claims, as opposed to fictional. Overall, I have looked for historical facts to line up with scripture and archeological data to illustrate real events took place.

I read the NKJV most of the time although I also read from the KJV sometimes.

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selah
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Re: (an) lds on: By What Authority?

Post by selah » Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:09 am

Karen,

It has been almost ten years since I read "The Case for Christ" and "The Case for Faith" by Lee Strobel. I think I read "The Case for a Creator" too. Another book which I read portions of is "Evidence Demands a Verdict" (I and II.) I am sorry but these and other archeology and history books are packed away at the present time. Specific information is underlined and I would like to refer to this as soon as possible for more complete and accurate communication.
Since we are both in agreement as to just how valuable The Bible is, would you like to visit about The Plates of Mormon that came up, were translated, and put into print by 1830 as "The Book of Mormon"?
Yes Karen, I would like to hear the evidence to show if the Plates of Mormon are authentic. Criteria that I respect includes (but is not limited to) secular historical facts. I would like to hear whatever you have to share about the plates authenticity. Can we find historical documentation to establish the people and events spoken in Book of Mormon really existed or happened?

We might also agree that archeological artifacts are important so we would need to document such "hard" findings. You are right that the original books of the Bible are no longer available (and neither are the plates.) Perhaps we need our brother Steve Gregg to come teach us... ;) Anyway sister, I wish I had my notes! :geek:
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

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darinhouston
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Re: (an) lds on: By What Authority?

Post by darinhouston » Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:26 am

I attended a great talk at my church on this subject from Peter Williams (from Tyndale House, England) last week and I wish I had the materials he presented. It was really excellent, and included many "proofs" I had never heard before.

This is a site he is involved in on the subject, which he recommended and I hope it includes some of the same material (though I haven't reviewed it).

You may enjoy it. http://4gospels.com/

Jill
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Post by Jill » Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:19 pm

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Post by Jill » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:41 pm

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selah
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by selah » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:21 pm

Karen, I wrote the post and got "kicked off" the internet. Here goes again...
Note- Im already ok with the Bible as it stands. Whats the hold up?
I thought you might ask.

Bear with me please. I hope to begin by establishing our reasons for believing in the authority of the Bible. I am not sure why you trust the Bible. If you trust the Bible for same or similar reasons that I trust the Bible, then we can use these same measures to line up the Book of Mormon. It seems to me that we should agree on the types of evidence we validate.

I realize this seems rudimentary but what good will it do if one sees, for example, archeological evidence valid and the other validates only the "burning of the bosom?" I believe the "burning in the bosom" may be like the term "faith" or the reference to the "Spirit witnesses to my spirit." However, faith is not the only evidence Christians have for trusting the Bible.

So first, what "proof" do we have that the Bible is true? Then, do the same proofs uphold the Book of Mormon?

I asked my son these questions last night (me in Oregon, him in Utah) and he said there is archeological evidence to show the Book of Mormon is true--that the people and events are real and not fiction. He did not give me any examples. What are some examples?

If the Book of Mormon is inspired by God, His-story will be right and at least have some documentary cross reference with secular historical and/or scientific facts.

My goal is to seek to know the authenticity of the Bible and the Book of Mormon based on facts that can be substantiated. Call me “doubting Thomas” if you must. :geek:
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

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Post by Jill » Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:15 pm

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selah
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by selah » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:08 pm

So, The Bible it is. Since we have all read it, there shouldn't be any problems. Where should we begin......
Hi Karen,
Jesus asserted His authority when He was on earth. Also, the Bible records His death and resurrection. But how do we know this is true? How do we know Jesus was telling the truth when He said the Father sent Him, et.al? In fact, how do we even know that He really came to the earth?

When I was a child, my mother taught me about Jesus. But how do I know my mother knew the truth? When I was in my youth, I asked these and other questions. To put it plainly, I questioned authority. I did not want to believe the things my mother taught me simply because she told me so. Rather, I wanted to accept truth based on it being fact, not because it was notions passed on without substance.

Do you accept the religion of your childhood because you have scrutinized the claims and proven them credible? If so, what measures did you use? The way I see it, there are are two avenues taken for searching out the evidence of Jesus’ authority. We can search for internal evidence, which Jesus, the apostles and the other Biblical authors wrote.

We can also look for external evidence, which is where I am looking now. The kinds of evidence that I am looking for would answer the following questions:
1. Does scripture (the Bible or Book of Mormon) have secular cross-references in historical records? In other words, did historians write the same stories or facts indicating the stories they (the Bible and Book of Mormon) wrote about?
2. What archeological artifacts have been found to illustrate the accuracy of stories, events and lifestyles written in the Bible and Book of Mormon?
3. Do scientific findings substantiate or refute the claims found within the Bible and the Book of Mormon?
4. What is the feasibility of claims made in the Bible and Book of Mormon?

I am sure there are other questions that could be listed. I hope you add your own questions to this list so we can consider all of the available evidence.
Historical, archeological, geographical and biological (and other categories) showing agreement with or cross-reference to scripture provide reassurance that the resource in our hands contains truth as opposed to fiction.

Actually, every Christian--and may I boldly include LDS with me in the "Christian" category?--rests upon the accuracy of Jesus' resurrection. If He did not really rise from the dead, then everything Christianity (and LDS) stand for fails.

For example, I have an article that demonstrates what looks like a biological inaccuracy coming from the Book of Mormon---a claim made within its pages that science now refutes. This in and of itself may not nullify the Book of Mormon but it brings up questions for me and I hope for any thinking LDS. You obviously think about your faith and apparently attempt to build bridges of communication between LDS and evangelicals so I hope you help me understand this scientific discrepancy.
The Harry Potter series for instance also exists, though I have not read it, but many have read it, and enjoyed it very much. The Star Trek series exists, and its fans have formed Trekie conventions, and have written extensive commentaries on possible meanings of each and every series. Some of these fans may be stoned on drugs, a bit nerdy, or maybe even retarded. I've known several. Hey- Dungeons & Dragons is a big thing for some folks also. I have no idea the nuance of each token or what magic counts as viable under certain conditions or which magic does not exist at all in the Dungeons & Dragons construct. I have declined joining in.
I have not read the Harry Potter series either, nor have I played Dungeons & Dragons. However, throughout my (quarter of a century) search for God before becoming a Christian, I studied almost any religion you name and eventually even considered fantasies such as found within “Star Trek.” Believe it or not, it was one of the many places that I attempted to find God. The Bajorian religion illustrated on “Deep Space Nine” caught my imagination as a possibility…

…and then Oregon set out to pass legislation to kill oneself. At this time in my life, I believe God opened my eyes to anarchy. It was like a timeline lay before me and upon it lay abortion in 1973, then years later the reading of articles wherein children found dead 3” long fetal bodies in dumpsters, then even more years later lay the reading of first trimester deaths now giving place to partial birth abortion (one minute before they become a literal newborn), then I witnessed my liberal friends (whom I stood with) overpower a Christian man as he gave a public speech, then months before becoming a Christian, I debated a liberal friend during Oregon’s “die with dignity” campaign. When that legislation passed, I stood at a cross-road. I could see anarchy clearly. A society, culture, community, family or individual without a foundation/authority for belief and behavior slips into anarchy. It was then that I HAD to re-examine authority. By what authority do you base your life on?

I went to my frequently attended women’s Native American sweatlodge (I had an eclectic worshipful practice) and when it was my turn to welcome a spirit, I welcomed the Spirit of Jesus into the sweatlodge. From that moment, the other women’s welcoming of the spirit of the bear, the skunk, etc. brought up the question in my mind, “by what authority does the spirit of a bear or skunk…give me counsel?” One memorable lady asked the spirit of the little green fairy into our sweatlodge and she even led us in a song of praise to the little green fairy lady. :shock: I didn’t sing; ;) I was too busy wondering what authority this little green fairy woman may have over my thoughts and my actions. Obviously, it has become more and more important to me that I know who our authority really is, so we are not lead into every wind of doctrine that happens to be within earshot.

Now, I believe that faith in Jesus comes by hearing the word of God found within the Bible, but there are factual, foundational reasons that undergird my faith in the Bible.

I have studied far too many religions to accept every one of them. In fact, only two denominations are an impossibility to completely converge. In order to be sure that I believed the truth, I needed to re-examine what my parents, childhood church-school teachers, preachers, and then years later what my LDS bishops and elders said. From just these two denominations alone, if I believed everything they said, I would be a conglomeration of Seventh Day Adventist crossed with Latter Day Saint. Obviously, one cannot be both at the same time.

Somehow, someway, discerning between truth and fable must be done. Let's pick on Catholicism as an example. (Sorry brother Tom :) ) I have heard you, Karen, make statements against the Catholic belief system. Like you, I am astounded at some of the beliefs they hold. You and I obviously do not believe the Catholic religious belief system holds any authoritative command over our lives. For example, my reason for rejecting mariology (sp?) is because it is not found in the Bible. I hope you agree. But the bottom line is that we don’t see Catholics having the authority. The question remains, why?

Why do you believe the Bible has authority over your life? Do you believe in the Bible because your grandmother told you so? Or do you believe in the Bible because facts back it up? What if the Bible and Book of Mormon are fantasies? Wouldn’t we want to determine fact from fiction?

My skills to articulate such dialogue seem elementary to me. I am obviously a novice at this. Just thinking this through for posting has alerted me to my lack of ability to give answers to why I believe like I do. During the move, I realized how dependant I am upon my books and notes. I would hope that enough understanding would reside within my heart and mind that I could give an answer without need for books and notes. Writing to you and hopefully hearing from you and others will stimulate my mind so that I have greater understanding as to why I believe that the Bible is the foundation for understanding worldview and holds the authority to command my personal life.
If someone has doubts about The Bible, its authenticity, or that the Bible is inviable evidence as to it attestation, this is more for an evangelical than for an lds. The lds not only assumes its authenticity, but actually use it.
You may be referring to the “burning in the bossom” effect that most (or all) LDS within the church attest to. I acknowledge that many LDS believe and have no need to answer why they believe, other than to say they feel it is true. (Perhaps they follow their leaders, be that a parent, preacher, prophet, teacher or elder, or maybe they follow sentimental memories of ancestors migrating to Utah, or current family practices, or even fall prey (non unlike evangelicals) to society’s materialistic following of each never-ending next holiday.)

In any event questioning authority is not as you say “more for an evangelical that for an LDS.” I have to disagree with this because I have known at least a half dozen LDS who walked away from the LDS church. One liberal friend (the one I mentioned having debated the right to “die with dignity” legislation) left the LDS church several years before she and I debated the legislation. The fact is that upon her exit from the LDS denomination, (and Jesus Christ) she wrote a 20 page dissertation refuting the authority of LDS scripture. (I'm looking for it; it is 15 years old but she gave me a copy and I would love to read it now, not to bash LDS but to view the concerns a woman leaving LDS held. I am similar in that I left SDA with my own concerns. It is sad to leave Jesus in the wake of leaving a dominating religious system.)

There are in fact, LDS who question the authority of the Book of Mormon---and the Bible too. By the way, after my friend rejected both books, she moved “forward” to vote to abort babies (starting with first trimester and then later partial-birth abortion) and then even later, also to kill the elderly and infirm with “dignity.” This is an example of anarchy. What was once wrong became a popularity contest through our political process. On a national, state, local or personal level, anarchy mutates if people don’t know what authority they should base life upon.
A woman was baring her testimony of the Son of God one sunday in womans meeting, and mentioned the "poofie linen cloth just crumpled in the corner of the tomb". In actual scripture, the cloth had been folded. I think that she must have been thinking of a scene from Mel Gibsons "The Passion" of Christ. This could happen to anyone from time to time. Just a bit of a mix up for a second is all.
This reminds me of the scripture telling us to have every thought obedient to Jesus Christ, but there is also more scripture you remind me of which tells us to be compassionate with one another, just as it sounds like you are when you say “this could happen to anyone...” Yes, none of us keep fact from fiction perfectly. (Again like I remember you sharing, I do not own a TV either. I did not see “The Passion” either. Another scripture I am reminded of is the story of the virgins with their oil lamps, praying for more diligence to fill our lamps...)
You don't have to have ever read nor ever read what is known as The Book of Mormon, but it sure is a great work, regardless who compiled it.
Yes, the Book of Mormon is either a great work of fact---or fiction. When I used to watch Star Trek’s “Deep Space Nine,” I marvelled at the fact or fiction in their religious practice—particularly the trances Captain Sisco or Quark went into when they touched the “orb.” It is hard to remember all of the names and correct terms now... but my point is that there really are compelling works of fiction.

To know the correct, true, authoritative command over humanity deserves our thoughtful evidence to show it to be factual, not fictional. We need true authority and therein, we must place our faith. Finally, faith is our goal: to have faith in the truth.

I keep hoping we can agree on the measures we use to determine authority. Take a hypothetical example from my recent move: If I wanted to move a piece of furniture into a corner space and you used a tape measure to see if it would fit, but I insisted on "eyeballing" it, well, my sense of space is not good so to be prudent, I should agree to use your tape measure---not rely on my "eyeballs" :lol: So with this simple example, I hope you understand that I am asking you to measure the authority of scripture---be it the Bible or the Book of Mormon or the other LDS scriptures--by the measures of historical cross-referencing, archeological artifacts, scientific discoveries and biology...etc.

...I already can't wait until you write me! I hope you tell me some historical fact or scientific discovery that shows me that you believe the Bible (or the Book of Mormon) is really true.
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

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selah
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by selah » Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:40 pm

Hi Karen, just a brief addendum:

I have been remiss to mention the most obvious evidence of all, that being prophesy. The first that I will mention is that which I believe I read in Josh McDowell's book, "Evidence Demands a Verdict" stating that if only seven of the 300 prophesies leading to Jesus' birth, death and resurrection came true then this would be like placing silver dollars two feet high covering the entire state of Texas and marking only one. The chances of finding the one marked silver dollar is something like ten to the 17th power. This is an illustration of the chances that Jesus (or anyone) would fulfill only seven of the 300 prophesies. This is pretty strong evidence to bear witness that Jesus really was sent from God and that the Bible is a book of truth and relevance. Does the Book of Mormon have any prophesies in it? :)

God bless you...I look forward to hearing from you...
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

Jill
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Post by Jill » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:50 pm

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