Laws of the Israelites

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TheEditor
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by TheEditor » Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:35 pm

Just to muck up the waters of this discussion some more:

"Neither be murmurers, just as some of them murmured, only to perish by the destroyer." (1 Corinthians 10:10)

Regards, Brenden.
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Paidion
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by Paidion » Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:34 pm

I'm not sure that that muddies the waters, Brenden. Rather it seems to confirm that the later Hebrews regarded Satan as the destroyer rather than God. Moses seemed to suggest that God God killed those who gave a bad report of the land, or at least wanted to do so. But I'm sure Paul believed it to be Satan.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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psimmond
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by psimmond » Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:04 pm

But in 2 Peter 2, God does get the credit:
5 and if He didn’t spare the ancient world, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others, when He brought a flood on the world of the ungodly;
6 and if He reduced the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes and condemned them to ruin, making them an example to those who were going to be ungodly;
7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, distressed by the unrestrained behavior of the immoral
8 (for as he lived among them, that righteous man tormented himself day by day with the lawless deeds he saw and heard) —
9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
10 especially those who follow the polluting desires of the flesh and despise authority.
Bold, arrogant people! They do not tremble when they blaspheme the glorious ones;

Admittedly. this is an unusual letter, but like the OT, it does name God as the author of these events.
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jriccitelli
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by jriccitelli » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:01 am

"For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to come in to your houses to smite you" (Exodus 12:23)
Call Him good or bad, that is your choice and opinion, but God executes His Judgment, and the judgment is death. Who the Judge is in these cases may not be as important to the judgments as who the angel is, it is clear that it is God who makes the judgment, and issues the orders:
"So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning until the appointed time, and seventy thousand men of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. When the angel stretched out his hand toward Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD relented from the calamity and said to the angel who destroyed the people, "It is enough! Now relax your hand!" And the angel of the LORD was by the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite" (2 Samuel 24:16)
"Now, Lord our God, deliver us from his hand, so that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that you, Lord, are the only God... "Then the angel of the LORD went out and struck 185,000 in the camp of the Assyrians; and when men arose early in the morning, behold, all of these were dead' (Isaiah 37:20, 36)
“Who knows, God may turn and relent and withdraw His burning anger so that we will not perish" When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it" (Jonah 3:10)

"And Hezekiah prayed to the Lord: 16 “Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, enthroned between the cherubim, you alone are God over all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth"
The Lord He is the Only God, He is the Lord and The Lord of Hosts, commander of armies and Judge of all Heaven.

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robbyyoung
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by robbyyoung » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:32 am

jriccitelli wrote:"For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to come in to your houses to smite you" (Exodus 12:23)
Call Him good or bad, that is your choice and opinion, but God executes His Judgment, and the judgment is death. Who the Judge is in these cases may not be as important to the judgments as who the angel is, it is clear that it is God who makes the judgment, and issues the orders:
"So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning until the appointed time, and seventy thousand men of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. When the angel stretched out his hand toward Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD relented from the calamity and said to the angel who destroyed the people, "It is enough! Now relax your hand!" And the angel of the LORD was by the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite" (2 Samuel 24:16)
"Now, Lord our God, deliver us from his hand, so that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that you, Lord, are the only God... "Then the angel of the LORD went out and struck 185,000 in the camp of the Assyrians; and when men arose early in the morning, behold, all of these were dead' (Isaiah 37:20, 36)
“Who knows, God may turn and relent and withdraw His burning anger so that we will not perish" When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it" (Jonah 3:10)

"And Hezekiah prayed to the Lord: 16 “Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, enthroned between the cherubim, you alone are God over all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth"
The Lord He is the Only God, He is the Lord and The Lord of Hosts, commander of armies and Judge of all Heaven.
Hi JR,

Quoting OT passages regarding God's judgements (killing) proves nothing to our dear brother Paidion. He rejects all instances which paints Him in that picture. Therefore, if you are inclined, must prove through the NT God's judgements were accurately portrayed by OT Prophets, not from their own minds.

God Bless.

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psimmond
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by psimmond » Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:01 am

Hi jriccitelli,
I was simply pointing out that this passage in 2 Peter agrees perfectly with OT writings but may not go along with Derek Flood's theory.

Paidion, are you reading Flood's book right now? If so, does Flood address this? I'm guessing he would say that the writer of 2 Peter had not yet learned (like Jesus and Paul) to filter OT passages about a violent God through the Jesus filter.
Let me boldly state the obvious. If you are not sure whether you heard directly from God, you didn’t.
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steve7150
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by steve7150 » Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:24 pm

Steve 7150 wrote:
Paidion,
What about Jesus referencing the flood "as it was in the days of Noah they shall be eating and drinking but then destruction rained down on them" , who caused the destruction? Was it God or just bad weather?
Also Jesus referenced Sodom and Gemorrah and their destruction. Isn't Jesus validating that God caused destruction. Isn't God killing people in these examples?

Whatever we may think about it, it is still the case that even in these examples, Jesus didn't say that God did it, even though the OT clearly says that He did.







Perhaps Jesus didn't say God did it because it was understood? What are the other choices? Natural event or Satan did it. Does Satan have that kind of power? Not in Job and not anywhere else in scripture and the odds of a natural event are zero.

dizerner

Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by dizerner » Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:18 pm

TheEditor wrote:Just to muck up the waters of this discussion some more:

"Neither be murmurers, just as some of them murmured, only to perish by the destroyer." (1 Corinthians 10:10)

Regards, Brenden.
On the contrary, I think you are elucidating. Paul says all those things happened as an example for his current day believers, and anyone on whom "the end of the age" might fall (us as well). Whether God directly did it, or merely allowed Satan to do it, seems moot.

On a side note, Christ was clear not every natural disaster or unlucky circumstance was a direct karma-like judgment for a bad deed, but rather we should all put our focus on cleaning up our own sin.

The reason why Jesus or Paul didn't emphasize OT killing is because those commands where for a one time establishing of a physical nation. You'd think from the way way atheists paint it, that the OT says "I the Lord your God love murdering and killing as many people as possible, and I love rape and slavery as well wherever you can, you shall be rewarded." But of course that's not really the emphasis, since the OT contains a lot of caring for one's neighbor, being kind to strangers, and even allowing foreigners to join the Jewish religion. After all, if you didn't want to die you could simply obey God.

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TheEditor
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by TheEditor » Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:47 pm

First time I have been accused of "elucidation." :lol:

Also, Paidion, first time I have heard of the "destroyer" being applied to Satan. Can you expand?

Regards, Brenden.
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john6809
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by john6809 » Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:13 pm

We pray, believing that God can (and does) intervene in human history. So, by extension, we believe in a God who could intervene in human suffering but often doesn't. That's ok with us but for Him to actually be the one who causes suffering is not ok?

In human terms, would we feel better about a man who didn't actually murder his wife and children but, having a means of preventing it, stood by and watched?

Seems as though Christians are ok with a God like that but if He should lift a finger against man, well, we just can't accept that He could do that AND be loving.


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