signs and wonders

Post by **_TK** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:12 pm

Maybe we arent all on the same page regarding what we are talking about when we say "miracles" or "signs and wonders."

when i think of miracles occurring today, i generally think of miraculous healings, miraculous deliverances from substance abuse, and things like that. of course i dont mean to limit what God can do. But I dont necessarily think of the earth opening up to swallow thousands of infidels, or the red sea parting, or the like.

i think miraculous healings and the like should be a regular occurrence in the church. but then we wouldnt call them miracles. EXACTLY! it should probably be much more normal. We often talk about how the divorce rate is as high in the evangelical church as it is in the world-- I wonder if the same cannot be said about sickness and disease. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems like this should not be!! what kind of testimony is that to the world? for some reason we have missed it. i think the main reason is unbelief (not necessarily lack of faith). we are bogged down by religiosity and preconceived ideas. again, JMO!

i am enjoying this discussion, BTW!

TK

Post by **_TK** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:16 pm

allyn wrote:

Just wondering TK, what were those greater works? What could possibly be greater then the works already done?

Is that a trick question?

TK

Post by **_Allyn** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:22 pm

No its not a trick question. Really. I was just pondering the verse but have not yet formulated any real thoughts on it. Just wondering what you thought. I will do some thinking on that and will get back to you. I will be leaving tomorrow a.m. early so when I get back in a few days I will tackle my own question and see what I am led to say (if I am led).

Post by **_mattrose** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:01 pm

TK,

I remember at least 1 very relevant quote from the early church where it was admitted that the rate of sickness in the church is the same as in the world. This wasn't seen as a bad thing at all. In fact, I believe the source was saying that physical healings were more prominent in evangelistic senses. I'll try to find the quote.

Post by **_SoaringEagle** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:28 pm

I think it has to do with what stage of maturity one is in. There are four stages of our spiritual life. Babes, little children, young men, and fathers. Paul said that not many make it to the last stage, (you have many teachers, but not many fathers). If christians never reach their full potential of maturity (a stage), they will never be released to the work God has for them in His kingdom, which is their place in the body of Christ.

My thoughts concerning this subject (signs and wonders) lean towards this direction. 8)

Post by **_TK** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:05 am

SE-

are you saying that we dont see more signs and wonders because there are not many "end stage" christians? if so i would probably agree with you.

TK

Post by **_mattrose** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:46 pm

I found the quote I referred to before. Let me quote a section from David Bercot's "Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up." (Pages 89-90)

As to the 'gospel of health,' the records of both secular and Christian history show that early Christians enjoyed no better health than the world around them. Letters written by early Christians testify to the fact that Christians suffered from the same plagues and calamities as the rest of mankind.

Early Christians believed in divine healing, but their testimonies about healing miracles indicate that such miracles were primarily administered to non-believers as a sign. They weren't something Christians normally received as promised blessing.

Cyprian discussed the fact that some Christians were disappointed when they suffered from a severe plague:

"It disturbs some that the power of this disease attacks our people in the same way it attacks the pagans. As if the Christian believed in order to have the pleasures of the world and a life free from illness, instead of enduring adversity here an awaiting a future joy. As long as we are here on the earth, we experience the same fleslhy tribulations as th rest of the human race, although we are separated in spirit...We have eye diseases, fevers, and feebleness of the limbs the same as others."

Early Christianity wasn't a religion that promised material prosperity and better health in THIS life. Yet the early Christians surely believed in the power of God.

Post by **_Mort_Coyle** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:21 pm

Funny, I just blogged about this.

It seems to me that when miracles (of the healing, exorcism, etc., nature) occur in the Bible, they're happening in "missionary" situations: In the course of the proclaimation of the gospel; in conflict situations; outside the church walls.

When I hear contemporary stories of the miraculous, they also typically come from "missionary" situations (local or abroad), not Sunday morning in the church prayer room.

Post by **_Christopher** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:32 pm

I think this thread is a safe place to jump back in (I ain’t touchin' them Universalism threads

).

Concerning the original premise by Wilkerson, I don’t see why Christians should be ashamed for not performing miracles. After all, Paul rhetorically asks…

Are all workers of miracles? (1 Cor 12:29-30)

I think God performs miracles where and when He means to, and the apostles we see performing miracles in Acts apparently had no doubt that it was the will of God. If God wants a miracle done, I think He is also able to effectively impress that upon the person through whom He intends to work it. I for one have never felt God impressing upon me to perform any miracles.

Concerning John 14:12, I would like to suggest (as others have) that Jesus performed miracles as signs of His authenticity and a fulfillment of prophesy (Isa 35:6 compare to Matt 11:5) and NOT as His primary purpose. As Christians, it could be said that we (collectively) do greater works than Christ in the sense that, through His Spirit, we are able to reach more people simultaneously than He could do single-handedly while He was walking the earth as one man. In that sense, we are performing greater “works” and fulfilling His primary of reconciling the world to God. Paul says:

2 Cor 5:18-21
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.
NKJV

Just thought I'd throw that in to chew on a little bit.

Post by **_SoaringEagle** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:51 pm

SE-

are you saying that we dont see more signs and wonders because there are not many "end stage" christians? if so i would probably agree with you.

Yep. The bible says we are "living stones" and that we are to be (and are being) "built" together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. If every "brick" were to be placed in its proper position, and every "stone" reached it's destiny in the temple, then God's glory and majesty would be on open display in a more glorious way; signs, wonders, and abundant revival.