quote from justin martyr

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_TK
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quote from justin martyr

Post by _TK » Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:29 pm

I am no expert in early church fathers, but apparently Justin Martyr wrote in his First Apologia:

"When we say that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He Jesus Christ was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem Son's of Jupiter."

what was his point in saying this?

i have been having a discussion with someone who brings up how the claims of christianity are not really anything new, as in the following: other virgin births, others had a god for a father, healed sicknesses, raised the dead, turned water into wine, cured the blind with their spit, fulfilled prophesy,believer's filled with the spirit of their god, walking on water (other ancient god's walked in air too), other believers had a meal with bread representing the body of their god and wine or water representing the blood of their god, and dying and raising god's were a dime a dozen.

how would you respond to this?

TK
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Post by _roblaine » Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:10 pm

Hi Tk,
To the Romans, Jupiter held the same role and Zeus did to the Greeks. The Romans held that Jupiter had son's himself. It would seem to me that Justin was challenging their consistency in saying that Jesus could not be the Son of God. He certainly was not giving credibility to their beliefs.

Robin
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Post by _TK » Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:15 pm

thanks robin. i agree.

what do you think about the second part of my post? i think the whole point of this guy i am conversing with is that christianity borrowed its major ideas from pagan religions that pre-dated it.

TK
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Post by _Rae » Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:21 pm

Who is the guy you are conversing with, TK? I remember listening to a guy debate Norman Geisler several years back and used the same reasoning and way of saying it ("god's like this were a dime a dozen"). I forgot his name, but I would recognize it if I heard it. Just curious if it is the same guy.
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Post by _roblaine » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:31 pm

TK wrote:thanks robin. i agree.

what do you think about the second part of my post? i think the whole point of this guy i am conversing with is that christianity borrowed its major ideas from pagan religions that pre-dated it.

TK
This to me is a silly argument. There can be little doubt where Christianity came from. It has its origins in Judaism, not Greek mythology. Christianity thought we accept the trinity, is a monotheistic belief system, where Greek philosophy is polytheistic. Many times while practicing apologetics, Christians will draw from the current cultures to make a point. For example, Paul talked about baptism for the dead, because it was a reality of the culture but he was not endorsing the practice of being baptized for the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:29 Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead?

Robin
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Post by _Ely » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:52 am

Within a biblical framework, similarities between different religions should not be surprising. He same one God created all nations. All nations once knew Him but all turned away from Him. In doing so, they would have still retained some elements of the true faith. Thus, if other religions have concepts and motifs similar to those given in the scriptures (belief in a Creator, sacrifices, prayer, etc) this is a reflection of our common ancestry as descendants of Noah. While these motifs have been widely, preverted, Adonai has made sure that the truth has been preserved in the scriptures.

Also, it should not surprise us to find that many cultures have preserved certain stories and narratives simiilar to those given in scripture. For example, there are many flood traditions in cultures around the world, both modern and ancient. But this doesn't mean that they are all wrong. It could just as easily be that they are all accounts of something that actually happened. Again, the Torah giving us the most accurate record.

One more thing, much of the time, these other religions cannot be shown to pre-date Christianity. Thus, it may well be the case that these other religions were the ones doing the copying!

The Tektonics website has several articles on this general field: http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/copycathub.html
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reply to roblaine

Post by _kaufmannphillips » Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:11 am

Hello, Robin,
This to me is a silly argument. There can be little doubt where Christianity came from. It has its origins in Judaism, not Greek mythology.
One can hardly imagine that Christianity only had antecedents in Judaism. Even the Judaism of Jesus' time was not immune to external influences, and it did not take very long before the early Christian movement was largely taken over by non-Jewish constituents.

Justin Martyr does not attempt to pretend that there were no parallels between Christianity and pagan religious activity. Consider, if you will:
"Be well assured, then, Trypho," I continued, "that I am established in the knowledge of and faith in the Scriptures by those counterfeits which he who is called the devil is said to have performed among the Greeks; just as some were wrought by the Magi in Egypt, and others by the false prophets in Elijah's days. For when they tell that Bacchus, son of Jupiter, was begotten by[Jupiter's] intercourse with Semele, and that he was the discoverer of the vine; and when they relate, that being torn in pieces, and having died, he rose again, and ascended to heaven; and when they introduce wine into his mysteries, do I not perceive that[the devil] has imitated the prophecy announced by the patriarch Jacob, and recorded by Moses? And when they tell that Hercules was strong, and travelled over all the world, and was begotten by Jove of Alcmene, and ascended to heaven when he died, do I not perceive that the Scripture which speaks of Christ, 'strong as a giant to run his race,' has been in like manner imitated? And when he[the devil] brings forward Asculapius as the raiser of the dead and healer of all diseases, may I not say that in this matter likewise he has imitated the prophecies about Christ?
Is piracy of Jewish prophecy really the most plausible explanation for these parallels? A lesser specimen of apologetics, here...

But one thing the passage does suggest: Justin understood that these parallels pre-dated Jesus, elsewise he might have posited direct imitation of Christianity, and not piracy of ancient prophecies.


Shlamaa,
Emmet
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Post by _roblaine » Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:25 pm

Hi Emmet,
I thought my comments might get a response from you. :wink:

There can be little doubt that Christianity has been influence by the pagan cultures. And it would be difficult to deny that Justin Martyr himself was not influence by his back ground as a pagan philosopher. He did continue to wear his philosopher's gown as a statement that Christianity was the correct truth that was sought by all philosophers.

However this is different than saying that Christianity has its roots in Greek philosophy, mythology, or other pagan cultures. Jesus was the fulfillment of the Jewish prophecies, and was the Son of the one true God worshiped by Jews as described in the Old Testament. Whatever counterfeits may have existed before or after Jesus are just that, demonic counterfeits.

Thank you,
Robin
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reply to roblaine

Post by _kaufmannphillips » Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:53 pm

Hello, Robin,

Thank you for your response.
There can be little doubt that Christianity has been influence by the pagan cultures. ... However this is different than saying that Christianity has its roots in Greek philosophy, mythology, or other pagan cultures.
When it comes to a minority culture like Second Temple Judaism, swimming in such a prevalent external culture, the distinction between "influence" and "roots" becomes delicate - and perilously rhetorical. Shall we argue that the logos concept in John has no tributary in Greek philosophy?
Jesus was the fulfillment of the Jewish prophecies, and was the Son of the one true God worshiped by Jews as described in the Old Testament.
And when it comes to divine sonship, are we really to assert that "orthodox" Christology comes closer to Jewish paradigms (which were messianic, adoptionist, and metaphorical), or to Greek precedents (where gods were understood to have fathered great men)?

Whatever counterfeits may have existed before or after Jesus are just that, demonic counterfeits.
Justin lives! :o :wink:

I can imagine more mundane origins for conceptual parallels than demonic activity. Quite often, human minds simply think alike.


Shalom,
Emmet
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Post by _Rick_C » Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:03 am

TK,

Justin's Apology also has:

"Moreover, the son of God called Jesus, even if he were only man from normal human reproduction, because of his wisdom is worthy to be called the Son of God. All the writers call God the father of men and gods. If we assert that the Word of God was born of God in a special way different from normal human reproduction then this is not anything extraordinary to you who say that Mercury is the angelic word of God."

Justin, in writing to the Emperor, was pointing out that virginal conceptions/births of divinities was not considered an extraordinary or unusual thing. Perhaps this could be called an "apologetic of similarity"?
You wrote:i have been having a discussion with someone who brings up how the claims of christianity are not really anything new, as in the following: other virgin births, others had a god for a father, healed sicknesses, raised the dead, turned water into wine, cured the blind with their spit, fulfilled prophesy,believer's filled with the spirit of their god, walking on water (other ancient god's walked in air too), other believers had a meal with bread representing the body of their god and wine or water representing the blood of their god, and dying and raising god's were a dime a dozen.

how would you respond to this?
"God sent His Son: Jesus, who died for our sins and was raised from the dead on the third day, according to the Scriptures. Whoever believes in Him will not perish but has eternal life. Change your mind! and believe this Good News!"
(or something along those lines)....

Thanks,
Rick
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