Hi Derek,
Derek wrote:As far as I know, I'm not a classical trinitarian,
Noted.
I realize that it may appear that I’m holding you responsible for every nuance of this doctrine. This is doubly problematic given my own admittedly imperfect understanding of exactly what it teaches. One of the reasons I keep inserting caveats such as “as I understand it” is to keep this clear. My goal in exploring the topic isn’t to prove either of us wrong or right, but, rather to deepen my own understanding. (A bit self-serving perhaps).
Put another way, if my opinion on the trinity doctrine were set in stone, I wouldn’t be nearly so interested in the discussion.
Derek wrote:To be honest, I am really not all that interested in being "orthodox" or "classical" or any such thing. I believe in the trinity doctrine, (or at least some form of it), because it makes the most sense of scripture. If you can show otherwise from scripture, I'll gladly change my opinion. It's not like I adhere to some "statement of faith" that I need to line up with!
If I thought it were otherwise, I would look for someone else to talk to… not because I hope to change your opinion, but, rather, I think this is the only intellectually honest way to be, and I’m not interested in conversations with the dishonest.
Derek wrote:I think I did more than "suggest" it. I gave examples from the Bible
I’m just trying to be careful when I reinterpret your words.
Derek wrote:What exactly do you mean by "logically equivalent"?
I mean that my understanding of trinitarianism is that it asserts that Jesus is exactly God, or Jesus = God. One characteristic of such an equivalency is that it is reflexive.
3 + 2 = 5
5 = 3 + 2
Jesus is God
God is Jesus
Jesus = God
God = Jesus
Derek wrote:If by "fully God" one means that all of the totality of God is in Jesus, and no where else, then I am not sure how that could be possible, given trinitariansim.
Okay, I think were getting somewhere.
My understanding of Trinitarian teaching is exactly that... “that all of the totality of God is in Jesus”. This is the “God is one” part of the doctrine. I think this is part of the “mutually indwelling” teaching that asserts that Jesus is inside God and God is inside Jesus simultaneously. The trinity doctrine teaches that this is quite literelly a mutual and simultaneous subsuming, and not just figurative.
If you agree that there is some aspect of God that exists apart from Jesus, or as, you say, “[you’re] not sure how [it] could be possible [that] all of the totality of God is in Jesus, and no where else” then (again as I understand things) you’ve just left the realm of trinitarianism. Trinitarinism teaches exactly that “all of the totality of God exists in Jesus and nowhere else.” At the same time it teaches, “all of the totality if God is in the Holy Spirit and nowhere else” as well as “all of the totality of God is in the Father and nowhere else”.
Derek wrote:It would create problems when trying to understand passages where Jesus prayed to the Father, or where the Father speaks to others regarding the Son.
Of course it would! That’s my point.
Derek wrote:I wouldn't say that the totality of the trinity is in any one person within it. That would be completely non-sensical.
One might even say, “Illogical”.
Die hard trinitarins would eschew the kind of language you’re employing here. They would say, “You can’t say things like ‘within it’ that implies a division that does not exist! Hear O Israel GOD IS ONE! You can’t go cutting up the trinity that way. It’s a tri UNITY man! It’s perichoresis!”
Again, to be clear, I don’t mean to accuse you of saying any of that. No need to defend against something you haven’t done. I’m trying to express trinitarianism as I understand it, something you asked me to do.
I acknowledge that you don’t claim to align yourself with the whole Trinitarian package. As an aside, it’s not the “eternally begotten” aspect that concerns me anyway… at least not for our current purposes. I don't want to misrepresent you, or make of your beliefs a straw man that I can wail on.
Indeed, I don't want to misrepresent trinitarianism. If I've done so in the above, I hope someone will point it out.
Perry