Ely wrote:
Actually, I'm not suggesting anything one way or the other, I'm just wandering what you might be suggesting. More questions:
- Did Elijah and Enoch go to Abraham's bossom/paradise or heaven above when they were taken (Gen 5:24, 2 Kings 2)?
- Where is this paradise? Do you think that it might be in the centre of the Earth (as many suppose)?
- Is it the same place that Paul was caught up to 2 Corinthians 12:4?
- And, do you think that Jesus didn't go to heaven (i.e. where He is now) at all during the three days and nights, and only went to paradise (Luke 23:42-43)?
(Rev 2:7 KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
This verse suggests that paradise is related to the earth, even Eden the restored garden of God when the new heavens and new earth come.
Paul ties the 3rd heaven to paradise where he received a vision and heard unspeakable words. This seems to imply "levels" to heaven which David confirms in Ps 148 stating "heavens of heavens". Paul is clear that he has no clue as to where or how this occurred.
As for Enoch it is said only that he walked with God and was not. He could have been taken to death. Heb 11:5 says he did not see death, but all that need mean is that his translation from life to death was immediate.
Whereas Elijah was taken by angels and wisked up into heaven. Yet the 50 prophets who witnessed this thought that perhaps the Lord had set him down again and searched 3 days to find him, but didn't. Later King Asa received a letter from him in 2 Chron 21:12. So perhaps the Spirit of the Lord did take him to another place like Phillip was taken in Acts 8:39. Perhaps a retirement villa...
As for Luke 23 and the thief on the cross, I don't think the absence of a comma in the Greek as Paidon points out makes a whit of a difference. The realm of the just dead is in view as the place he will be whether that is heaven or not.
So here are my thoughts on what we are to consider "paradise" to be:
1. the spiritual realm of the dead in Christ where souls await the resurrection of their bodies aka Abraham's bosom/ Hades.
2. it has boundaries that prevent one from leaving it, ie. no spirits of the dead walk upon the earth to appear as ghosts.
3. this realm is somehow connected to heaven although it may not be where God's throne is.
4. this spiritual venue is not "in the skies" but on the earth somehow as if it is another dimension.
5. Jesus did go there for the 3 days His body lay in the tomb which is how the thief was able to be with Him there. But only Jesus left there in a glorified body when He was resurrected from the dead.
6. Mat 27:52-53 tells us that the graves opened in Jerusalem when Jesus died, and when He was resurrected that bodies came up out of their graves restored to
natural life and entered the city where many saw them. This indicates to me that the resurrection is the key as to
when death became the entrance to heaven vs paradise.
7. since His resurrection, all who die in Christ are absent from the body and present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:5). This would seem to be confirmed by John's vision in Revelation as only saints from the 1st advent on are seen by him in heaven before the throne of God. First he sees the martyrs then the others who follow during the Church age.
Here is a verse that also suggests to me that the OT saints who died pre-cross have not yet been taken to heaven but wait in paradise for their resurrection:
(Joel 3:20-21 KJV) But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation. {21} For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.
By faith they have the promise of resurrection, but they do not yet have the blood atonement applied to them. Since we know that the Church age saints will be resurrected
and glorified at the 2nd coming, having received eternal life when they were born again - these others may be among the rest of the dead (Rev 20:5) whom at the judgment will be invited to eat from the tree of life in the eternal kingdom. Since by faith their names are written in the book of life, when they stand again in the resurrection they will come under the atonement at that time.
To me this explains the judgment parable from Mat 25:31 as well as Rev 20:13, where works regarding service to Christ are mentioned. In the parable, the ones who served Christ did not know they had - this implies those who died before Messiah arrived.