OT Saints in Heaven?

[Guest]

I have been trying to determine where it says that the OT saints who died pre-cross were released from Abraham's bosom/Hades and taken to heaven to await the 2nd coming resurrection.

On another board it was suggested that Jesus "led captivity captive" is where this idea is found (Eph 4:8; Ps 68:18). But to me it seems that this is referring to His victory over Satan as the captor who was taken captive.

In the OT you see the hope of bodily resurrection but not of going to heaven per se. Anybody know?

[Guest]

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

[Guest]

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

Hi Paidion,
I had thought of that too but it was suggested that this refers to Jesus' being the only one who is glorified bodily and does not discount that the others were there in the disembodied state.

[_Ely]

Robin, what do you suppose happened to those who died in the pre-cross era then? Asusing their souls still exist and they are not in heaven, where do you suppose they might be?

[Guest]

Robin, what do you suppose happened to those who died in the pre-cross era then? Asusing their souls still exist and they are not in heaven, where do you suppose they might be?

Abraham's bosom or paradise, where they are awaiting the resurrection of the their bodies. Where do you see that they were taken to heaven?

[Guest]

Paidion wrote:

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

Hi Paidion,
I had thought of that too but it was suggested that this refers to Jesus' being the only one who is glorified bodily and does not discount that the others were there in the disembodied state.

I don't understand how that could be the meaning. For the verse indicates that Jesus had ascended into heaven, and at the time He said it, he had not yet been raised from death.

Josephus wrote "Discourse Concerning Hades" in which he discusses the state of the dead in much the same manner as that which Christ described in his parable recorded in Luke 16:19-31.

I think Christ was using a common Jewish myth to illustrate that even if it were possible for someone to return from death, the Pharisees would not believe.

"Hades" in Greek, and "sheol" in Hebrew are words used to describe the grave. In English the word is "hell" which means "a hidden place." In early English literature, lovers sought a "hell" in order not to be seen.
For some inexplicable reason, the Greek word "Gehenna", a place of great discomfort for the wicked who will be resurrected, and which Christ warned about, is also translated "hell" in many English translations.

It is my belief that the word translated as "soul" in the New Testament has the basic meaning of "self", and in the Old Testament means "being".
In Genesis, animals as well as people were "souls" or "beings."
The idea of an ethereal "soul" which can exist apart from the body is pure Greek philosophy which, unhappily, has entered into Christendom.

I believe the scriptural teaching, when taken as a whole, teaches that when you're dead, you're dead, and you will remain dead until the Lord raises you from death. I do not believe that we are conscious after death until the resurrection.

[_Ely]

Abraham's bosom or paradise, where they are awaiting the resurrection of the their bodies. Where do you see that they were taken to heaven?

Actually, I'm not suggesting anything one way or the other, I'm just wandering what you might be suggesting. More questions:

- Did Elijah and Enoch go to Abraham's bossom/paradise or heaven above when they were taken (Gen 5:24, 2 Kings 2)?

- Where is this paradise? Do you think that it might be in the centre of the Earth (as many suppose)?

- Is it the same place that Paul was caught up to 2 Corinthians 12:4?

- And, do you think that Jesus didn't go to heaven (i.e. where He is now) at all during the three days and nights, and only went to paradise (Luke 23:42-43)?

[Guest]

I am not sure I'm being asked. But I'll attempt to answer two of these questions from my perspective:

Did Elijah and Enoch go to Abraham's bossom/paradise or heaven above when they were taken (Gen 5:24, 2 Kings 2)?

A few years back, I would have said that we don't know what happened to them. All we know is that they Enoch was taken. It doesn't say where, and that Elijah was taken up into the sky. I guess I would still say that that is all we know.

However, I encountered an early Christian writer, I forget which one, that suggested that they never died, and that they continued to exist in their mortal bodies, but never did die because God preserved them alive. It was suggested that they might be those two witnesses in Revelation who will appear during the tribulation period, and who will then die. Here is the account:

And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands which stand before the Lord of the earth. And if any one would harm them, fire pours out from their mouth and consumes their foes; if any one would harm them, thus he is doomed to be killed.

They have power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.

And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit will make war upon them and conquer them and kill them, and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

For three days and a half men from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. Revelation 11:3-11

And, do you think that Jesus didn't go to heaven (i.e. where He is now) at all during the three days and nights, and only went to paradise (Luke 23:42-43)?

Jesus didn't go to heaven during the three days and nights. Remember what he said to Mary:

...Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father...

You are assuming that Jesus went to Paradise because of what is written in Luke 22:42,43. But there was no punctuation in the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. I suggest that He didn't say to the thief that he would be with Him today, but rather:

And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

And he said to him, "Truly, I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise." Luke 22:42,43

As I see it, the thief will be with Jesus in Paradise after his resurrection, which will occur at the second coming.

[Guest]

Actually, I'm not suggesting anything one way or the other, I'm just wandering what you might be suggesting. More questions:

- Did Elijah and Enoch go to Abraham's bossom/paradise or heaven above when they were taken (Gen 5:24, 2 Kings 2)?

- Where is this paradise? Do you think that it might be in the centre of the Earth (as many suppose)?

- Is it the same place that Paul was caught up to 2 Corinthians 12:4?

- And, do you think that Jesus didn't go to heaven (i.e. where He is now) at all during the three days and nights, and only went to paradise (Luke 23:42-43)?

(Rev 2:7 KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

This verse suggests that paradise is related to the earth, even Eden the restored garden of God when the new heavens and new earth come.

Paul ties the 3rd heaven to paradise where he received a vision and heard unspeakable words. This seems to imply "levels" to heaven which David confirms in Ps 148 stating "heavens of heavens". Paul is clear that he has no clue as to where or how this occurred.

As for Enoch it is said only that he walked with God and was not. He could have been taken to death. Heb 11:5 says he did not see death, but all that need mean is that his translation from life to death was immediate.

Whereas Elijah was taken by angels and wisked up into heaven. Yet the 50 prophets who witnessed this thought that perhaps the Lord had set him down again and searched 3 days to find him, but didn't. Later King Asa received a letter from him in 2 Chron 21:12. So perhaps the Spirit of the Lord did take him to another place like Phillip was taken in Acts 8:39. Perhaps a retirement villa...

As for Luke 23 and the thief on the cross, I don't think the absence of a comma in the Greek as Paidon points out makes a whit of a difference. The realm of the just dead is in view as the place he will be whether that is heaven or not.

So here are my thoughts on what we are to consider "paradise" to be:
1. the spiritual realm of the dead in Christ where souls await the resurrection of their bodies aka Abraham's bosom/ Hades.

2. it has boundaries that prevent one from leaving it, ie. no spirits of the dead walk upon the earth to appear as ghosts.

3. this realm is somehow connected to heaven although it may not be where God's throne is.

4. this spiritual venue is not "in the skies" but on the earth somehow as if it is another dimension.

5. Jesus did go there for the 3 days His body lay in the tomb which is how the thief was able to be with Him there. But only Jesus left there in a glorified body when He was resurrected from the dead.

6. Mat 27:52-53 tells us that the graves opened in Jerusalem when Jesus died, and when He was resurrected that bodies came up out of their graves restored to natural life and entered the city where many saw them. This indicates to me that the resurrection is the key as to when death became the entrance to heaven vs paradise.

7. since His resurrection, all who die in Christ are absent from the body and present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:5). This would seem to be confirmed by John's vision in Revelation as only saints from the 1st advent on are seen by him in heaven before the throne of God. First he sees the martyrs then the others who follow during the Church age.

Here is a verse that also suggests to me that the OT saints who died pre-cross have not yet been taken to heaven but wait in paradise for their resurrection:

(Joel 3:20-21 KJV) But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation. {21} For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

By faith they have the promise of resurrection, but they do not yet have the blood atonement applied to them. Since we know that the Church age saints will be resurrected and glorified at the 2nd coming, having received eternal life when they were born again - these others may be among the rest of the dead (Rev 20:5) whom at the judgment will be invited to eat from the tree of life in the eternal kingdom. Since by faith their names are written in the book of life, when they stand again in the resurrection they will come under the atonement at that time.

To me this explains the judgment parable from Mat 25:31 as well as Rev 20:13, where works regarding service to Christ are mentioned. In the parable, the ones who served Christ did not know they had - this implies those who died before Messiah arrived.

[_Ely]

Just a coupel of things Robin,

As for Enoch it is said only that he walked with God and was not. He could have been taken to death. Heb 11:5 says he did not see death, but all that need mean is that his translation from life to death was immediate.

To "see death" seems to mean to experience death (see Luke 2:26, John 8:51 and Psalm 89:48 ).

Whereas Elijah was taken by angels and wisked up into heaven. Yet the 50 prophets who witnessed this thought that perhaps the Lord had set him down again and searched 3 days to find him, but didn't. Later King Asa received a letter from him in 2 Chron 21:12. So perhaps the Spirit of the Lord did take him to another place like Phillip was taken in Acts 8:39. Perhaps a retirement villa...

Asa? It appears thatt he letter was sent to Jehoram (see the first 11 verses). Also, why do you think that this was after Elijah's ascent?