The Narrow Path Ministries

I have thought about the question "who made God" for sometime now and it dawned on me that the idea that God has always existed in an infinite way, isn't as far-fetched, irrational, or mysterious as some may think. I'd like to make a comparison. Think of numbers. Is it true, that there is no first number, nor is there a last number? I don't think there is. What is the lowest number, and what is the highest?

<----15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15---->


So if this is true with numbers, why can it not be true with God? If numbers can have no beginning or an end, then why couldn't God? If my understanding is correct, then we can actually see something natural such as numbers where this is the case. With that in mind, it may just be that this example with numbers is a dim reflection of the Great "I AM".

P.S. I have never heard anyone else come up with this idea, so I did not borrow this from anyone. There is nothing new under the some, and I must say I realize that!

Hey SE--

i certainly agree that God always existed and is outside of time (although there are alternate views, e.g. see Hugh Ross, Beyond the Cosmos). the only place the number comparison seems to break down is that numbers are not "real." rather, they are abstract representations- i.e. man created numbers to help him explain and function in the world. as such, numbers do not really "exist." in other words, if man wasnt around, there wouldnt be any numbers. but of course God DOES exist, and in my view is the only entity that never had a "cause." surely this is something that finite minds cannot truly grasp. eternity from this point looking forward is hard enough to grasp, but eternity looking backwards seems much harder to grasp.

how about this little paradox-- since God has existed for all eternity, i.e infinitely into the past, then how, in time, did the point ever arrive when He decided to create the universe? i.e., how could He ever get from infinity in the past to any particular point in time?

this seems to be a variation of xeno's paradox, which i wont bother to explain here(you can google it if you are interested), but i am not sure that it is quite the same.

sorry for the rambling response, but i like thinking about stuff like this.

TK

So if this is true with numbers, why can it not be true with God? If numbers can have no beginning or an end, then why couldn't God? If my understanding is correct, then we can actually see something natural such as numbers where this is the case. With that in mind, it may just be that this example with numbers is a dim reflection of the Great "I AM".

Seems like a good analogy, how about a circle? After all the laws of physics and math were made by God and He is very big on symbolism.

The fact that we can conceive of the set of integers which extend infinitely into the negative as well as the positive can hardly be a basis for believing that there is an infinite regression of time into the past. We have all been conditioned by both our secular education and our religious education to believe this. We ought rather to base our theology on revelation, and there is no scripture to indicate that time extended infinitely into the past. Quite the contrary! Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 both speak of events "in the beginning". The beginning of what? I propose that the beginning of time is meant in both cases. There really was a beginning to time! That means we can't speak of "before the beginning of time". There is no "before" because "before" indicated a previous time. Assume time B is the beginning of time If event E occurred before time B, then time B could not have been the beginning of time.

What is time anyway? Perhaps you would regard my understanding too simplistic. I believe time is a way of measuring the passage of events, or perhaps more accurately of measuring change in matter or entities.
God didn't have to create time; time is not a substance that needs creating. God begat His Son at the beginning of time, or as early Christians put it --- "before all ages". After the second event (I'm not sure what it was, but I suspect it was the creation of the universe by the Father through the Son), time began. So there was not a "time" at which the Son did not exist (as the Arians claimed), for He was begotten as the first act of God.

Did God the Father exist before He begat His Son? The question is meaningless, because there was no "before". All we can say is that God existed at the beginning of time, and He begat His Son instantly, the first thing God ever did.

Some say that God exists "outside of time". If you are one of those who make this claim, first tell us what you mean, and secondly, give us scripture that teaches such a concept.

As TK asked, "how could He[God] ever get from infinity in the past to any particular point in time?" Or perhaps even more clearly, if God exists "outside of time" how did He ever break into time? And having once broken in, does He now exist both inside of time and outside of time simultaneously? To me the whole concept is meaningless and leads to contradictions.

To get to the original question "Who made God?", from our vantage point everything we have experienced had to be "made" in some sense. There was a time at which it did not exist. But this does not apply to God. For He was simply "there" at the beginning of time. It is unnecessary to explain His existence. He was the "first cause" that triggered all events.

Paidion wrote: We ought rather to base our theology on revelation, and there is no scripture to indicate that time extended infinitely into the past. Quite the contrary! Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 both speak of events "in the beginning". The beginning of what? I propose that the beginning of time is meant in both cases. There really was a beginning to time!

I disagree. I don't think you have proven that Genesis 1:1 is the beginning of time (as you define time). I think rather it says that this moment is the beginning of the physical creation, not the beginning of time. It seems like you are reading in the word "time" into Genesis 1:1. I also don't see where Jesus was begotten at this time either. Nor the angels for that matter.

Since God existed before the physical creation (which Genesis 1:1 says happened in the beginning) then logically, God existed before this "time". Meaning quite simply that time goes back past the creation, since God existed before the earth was created.


Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began

before what?

aiōnios chronos

Here we go debating aiōnios again.

aiōnios: Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting


chronos: Thayer Definition:
1) time either long or short


It seems like God promised something before (or without) the beginning of time. However, if one holds that aiōnios being related to aion means age, then you still have the sentance saying: before the age of time.

Also:

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

The first act in Genesis 1:1 is not Jesus being created, or time beginning, but rather the creation beginning. Yet, before the physical creation God had already foreordained Christ to come for us as a lamb without spot.

Since the creation account only includes physical things, it is certainly possible that the angels already existed. Maybe not. It's hard to say.

This issue is a difficult one to prove on any side. Trying to understand the impossible.

Here we go debating aiōnios again.

aiōnios: Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting


chronos: Thayer Definition:
1) time either long or short

Except if you accept definitions by theologians it will be colored by their bias which is something we all have.
For example here's an example of how Strong's Greek Dictionary contradicts itself,
Page 9- #165 AION, age,course,eternal,ever,evermore,without end
Page-78 #5550, CHRONOS, a space of time (in general and thus properly distinguished from 2540 which designates a fixed or special occasion and from AION which denotes a PARTICULAR PERIOD OR INTERVAL)

As far as anyone knows the word "aionios" originated from Plato who used it as the adjective from the noun "aion" which he used for age eight times and "aionios" as ages five times.
And as Paidion has previously pointed out there is a clear greek word that means eternal which is "AIDIOS" which is in fact used twice in scripture.
AIONIOS first used by Plato must mean the same as the noun that IS IT'S SOURCE. Just like the noun "sweetness" gives it's flavor to it's adjective , sweet.
And in scripture there are numerous examples of "aion" being used to mean age.

Sean, if "aionios" means "eternal", then the ASV translation ofTitus 1:2 is both literal and correct:

"...in hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before times eternal."

But if times are eternal (both progressively and regressively) how can something happen before? The fact that God promised something before indicates that the phrase cannot mean "times eternal"
If it did, then "times eternal" would not really be eternal!

So we do have to go back to the true meaning of "aionios" in order to make sense of the verse.

Rotherham (Rotherham 1902 Bible) translated it this way:

"...in hope of life age–abiding; which God, who cannot lie, promised before age–during times."

The NASB simply puts it this way:

"...in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago."

In any case, no matter how the verse is translated, I don't see how it can justify an eternal regression of time into the past. Though the word "aidios" means "eternal", as Steve7150 reminded us, there is no indication that this eternity is bi-directional. It simply means "without end".

I don't think you have proven that Genesis 1:1 is the beginning of time (as you define time).

True. I haven't proven it. Nor did I attempt to. My words were an explanation, not a proof.

I think rather it says that this moment is the beginning of the physical creation, not the beginning of time.

It doesn't "say" that. But that is your explanation of "the beginning".

It seems like you are reading in the word "time" into Genesis 1:1.

No, I'm not reading it in. I'm explaining it.

I also don't see where Jesus was begotten at this time either. Nor the angels for that matter.

The angels were not begotten; they were created.

The second century Christian writers understood the "Wisdom" of Proverbs 8 to have been Jesus. Jesus was the personification of "Wisdom". So they understood that passage as a description of the begetting of the Son of God, and the Father's creative work through Him.
So here is "Wisdom", the Son of God speaking:

Yahweh made me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. Proverbs 8:22,23

I consider that the begetting of the Son to have been the first act of God at the beginning of time, to be followed immediately after with the creation of the universe.

Since God existed before the physical creation (which Genesis 1:1 says happened in the beginning) then logically, God existed before this "time". Meaning quite simply that time goes back past the creation, since God existed before the earth was created.

Yes, God existed before the creation. I have no problem with this. What I have been trying to say is that there were no events or existence before the beginning of time, because there was no before.

So let me try once more.

1. God existed at the beginning of time, and not "before" because there was no "before".

2. God begat His Son. This initial event is what got time started. So "In the Beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was toward God, and the Logos was Deity [because He was the only-begotten Son of God] John 1:1

3. God may have thought and planned and promised before the creation. He, being God, might have planned billions of things in a split second.
In any case, shortly afterward, the angels and the physical universe were created through the Son. So the creation itself can be described as having occurred "in the Beginning" even though it began to take place later (maybe a few seconds) after the Beginning of time.

I dont have a problem accepting the fact that time did not always exist. even stephen hawking says this-- that before the "singularity" that produced the big bang, there was no time (if you go in for that sort of thing).

time, it seems, is a measurement of duration. so the question becomes, has God always endured? was God ever not there? to me, the answer is obviously no. genesis 1:1 documents the first "break" in God's ever enduring pre-existence. i think.

TK

was God ever not there? to me, the answer is obviously no

I also believe the answer is "no".

Paidion wrote:
So we do have to go back to the true meaning of "aionios" in order to make sense of the verse.

Rotherham (Rotherham 1902 Bible) translated it this way:

"...in hope of life age–abiding; which God, who cannot lie, promised before age–during times."

The NASB simply puts it this way:

"...in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago."

In any case, no matter how the verse is translated, I don't see how it can justify an eternal regression of time into the past.

It seems there are two possibilities. Before aiōnios chronos when taking aiōnios to mean age would seem to mean "before time began" or "before the age of time".

The other possiblility is that aiōnios means eternal. You said:

Paidion wrote: Sean, if "aionios" means "eternal", then the ASV translation of Titus 1:2 is both literal and correct:

"...in hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before times eternal."

But if times are eternal (both progressively and regressively) how can something happen before? The fact that God promised something before indicates that the phrase cannot mean "times eternal"
If it did, then "times eternal" would not really be eternal!

I would agree with the ASV as you quoted it. This is the second possibility. How can it be valid and times eternal still be eternal? You can read the word "before" in another way. You don't have to look at it as if "before" means to place a mark on a timeline, then you get to "times eternal" and say "there is no beginning to eternal so I can't put a mark before it".

The other way to read it is like this:

The word "before" does not have to refer to a point in an eternal time line. It can simply be a way of saying God promised beyond/in front of eternal times. In other words, God is not bound by time as we understand it. More on this below.

Paidion wrote:

I think rather it says that this moment is the beginning of the physical creation, not the beginning of time.

It doesn't "say" that. But that is your explanation of "the beginning".

I'm just saying that what is described in Genesis 1 is the creation account. Each day of creation has a description of what was created.

"In the beginning God created" The reference
seems to be the beginning of creation, not time itself.

Paidion wrote:
Yahweh made me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. Proverbs 8:22,23

I consider that the begetting of the Son to have been the first act of God at the beginning of time, to be followed immediately after with the creation of the universe.

If you look up that passage in Hebrew, it can mean something other than that translation and still refer to Jesus as being uncreated.

Paidion wrote:
Yes, God existed before the creation. I have no problem with this. What I have been trying to say is that there were no events or existence before the beginning of time, because there was no before.

So let me try once more.

1. God existed at the beginning of time, and not "before" because there was no "before".

So this gets us right back on topic of "Who made God"? So God didn't exist before time. So time created God? I'm not trying to put you in a box Paidion, I'm just not understanding your conclusion. While I disagre with you, your points are logical until this conclusion is drawn. If God is not before time, then where did He come from? It reminds me of the big band theory. Everything came from nothing.

It doesn't seem like your theory would work if:
-there is no beginning to time
-time's beginning extends beyond the creation account and/or Jesus's beginning.

God has declared Himself to be the beginning and the end. Time is not the beginning. Time is just a way to relate to events that have taken place (or will take place). In other words, time isn't a "thing" to be created. Rather it's an expression of what God has done. So has God done somthing before the creation in Genesis 1:1? How would I know, God doesn't say either way.

Paidion wrote:
2. God begat His Son. This initial event is what got time started. So "In the Beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was toward God, and the Logos was Deity [because He was the only-begotten Son of God] John 1:1

3. God may have thought and planned and promised before the creation. He, being God, might have planned billions of things in a split second.
In any case, shortly afterward, the angels and the physical universe were created through the Son. So the creation itself can be described as having occurred "in the Beginning" even though it began to take place later (maybe a few seconds) after the Beginning of time.

One of the reasons I disagree is that God has the ability to predict the future. It's impossible to know something before it happends (before the event takes place in "real time"). But God knows. It's like He can fast forward to see not only the outcome of all possible contingencies (1 Sam 23:9-13) but He can also see the final result of all these free will contingencies as He has already predicted what will happen in the age to come.

I can't comprehend how God can do this, but it appears that He can. He has something over "time" that we don't. It doesn't have to mean He's outside of time, but He certainly doesn't appear to be stick inside time either. If He was, how could He know the future? A future that involves free will choices of men?

It's certianly not a winnable debate on either side, as the Bible doesn't say how God knows or does what He does. But it's fun to talk about.