Deity of Jesus for salvation?

Post by **_Anonymous** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:20 am

Certainly Jesus was not "fully God" and "fully man" in the same sense.
But to say that He was "half man" and "half God" is even worse!

While Jesus walked on earth He was "fully God" in a different sense than the Father was "fully God". According to scripture He had divested Himself of His divine attributes, and became fully a human being. The ONLY thing He retained of His divinity as the only-begotten God, was His identity. He was the same Son of God as He was prior to His birth on earth.

"Before Abraham was, I am."

So in that sense, and in that sense only, He was fully God here upon the earth. In every other way, He was fully human.

Paidion-

I like the way you think. Clearly the scriptures teach that Jesus had a pre-existence with the Father. Philippians 2 teaches that he did divest himself of his divine attributes. Scripture also seems to teach a supremacy of God the Father over the Lord Jesus Christ, not a co-equality. In Philippians 2, it is God who exalted Jesus. How can one exalt another to a higher position unless he occupies a higher position? Also in Philippians 2, the end result of every tongue confessing that Jesus is Lord is the glory of God the Father. Scripture also states in several places that Jesus is at the right hand of God. The implication is that the one who is at the right hand of another is subordinate to the one whose right hand he is at. i.e. The king's right hand man carries out the wishes of the king.

The ONLY thing He retained of His divinity as the only-begotten God, was His identity. He was the same Son of God as He was prior to His birth on earth.

This however is far different from the meaning that most Evangelicals ascribe to the phrase "Fully God and fully man." I clench my teeth when I sit in church and hear that God died on the cross. When I read the word GOD in Scripture, my assumption is that it is talking about The Father. I think that this is mostly a good assumption. In 1Cor. 8:6, Paul says, "but for us, there is one God, The Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we exist." (God the Father= the source of creation, Jesus Christ= the instrument of creation) All of Paul's letters begin with some version of the salutation, "Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. It seems to me that the early Christians, certainly the apostle Paul, saw Jesus Christ and God the Father as two very separate and distinct beings. Modern day Trinitarians have blended and blurred the two persons to an extent that I don't see in scripture.

Post by **_Peter** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:24 am

That last post was me again. I'll get the hang of this thing yet.

Peter

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:42 am

Has anyone ever heard of the theory that Elohim is Father God and Jesus/Jehovah is the Son of God since they have similar attributes and similar things are said about them but one in the OT and the other in the NT.

Post by **_Christopher** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:49 am

Paidion,

Let's look at the passage in context. Paul began chapter 5 with these words:

1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

As I see it, Paul is here describing the resurrection that occurs when Jesus returns. Having been raised to life, we "put on our heavenly dwellling" --- the resurrection body. Having put it on, we "will not be found naked." We will not be mere disembodied spirits. Then Paul wrote:

5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—
7 for we walk by faith, not by sight—
8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

I think Paul is saying that it's preferable to be absent from this present mortal body, and to be at home with the Lord in our future immortal body when we are resurrected.

You may be right in saying Paul is talking about the bodily resurrection, because a few verses earlier he says:

2 Cor 4:14
14 knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you.
NKJV

However, there is also at the beginning of the scripture you quoted:

1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,

This leads me to believe that Paul is referring to something else than our resurrected bodies. I guess I'm expecting to live on earth when my body is resurrected, not in the "heavens".

I also take "eternal" to be continuous, not after a pause of death.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

Post by **_Christopher** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:04 pm

Hi Peter,

It seems to me that the early Christians, certainly the apostle Paul, saw Jesus Christ and God the Father as two very separate and distinct beings. Modern day Trinitarians have blended and blurred the two persons to an extent that I don't see in scripture.

If it's as easy as all that, then what do you make of Jesus' response to Phillip?:

John 14:8-11
8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
NKJV

Elsewhere, He says:

John 10:30
I and My Father are one."
NKJV

Seems to me Jesus himself is blurring the lines a little, wouldn't you say? Otherwise, Philips' request wouldn't be that unreasonable I think.

As for Paul, he seems to echo this sentiment:

Col 1:15-18
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
NKJV

I don't pretend to understand the nature of God and the relationship of the trinity, but preeminence doesn't seem to suggest subordinance to me.

Post by **_loaves** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:57 pm

JW believe that Jesus is "the highest created being"?

If that is true, how could a mere created man pay for sins? Eternal payment had to be made, for an eternal transgression, requiring nothing less than something to be sacrificed that is eternal. Or something like that.

Agape,

loaves

Post by **_Paidion** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:34 pm

loaves wrote:
Paidion wrote:... the highest created being ...
How could a mere created man pay for sins? Eternal payment had to be made, for an eternal transgression, requiring nothing less than something to be sacrificed that is eternal. Or something like that.

Agape,

loaves

Well Loaves, this quote of me gives everyone the impression that I referred to Jesus as "the highest created being."

When words from a short post are quoted out of context to give a false impression, it is not much wonder that so much of the bible is quoted out of context to give a false impression.

Just to set the record straight for everyone: never in my life have I stated that Jesus is "the highest created being." In the post quoted from, I did mention that Jehovah's Witnesses believe that.

As for "paying for sins" with the idea of
"Jesus taking our punishment for us, vicariously", nowhere do the scriptures teach this. Oh, you can find verses which can be taken out of context and re-interpreted to support this concept. But it is a false idea that has served well to make people feel comfortable in their sins, and see no need to be delivered from them.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:36 pm

Loaves, The JWs don't believe Jesus paid for mankinds sins, they believe he was a ransom or equal payment for Adam's transgression.

Post by **_Paidion** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:49 pm

I also take "eternal" to be continuous, not after a pause of death.

"Eternal in the heavens" is actually a poor translation. The word is "aiōnios", which should be translated as "permanent" (literally "agey").
The Greek word for "eternal" is "aidios" which is used in the scripture with reference to "His eternal power and Deity." The resurrection body is a permanent body. It will not be subject to decay. When you are raised you will become immortal.

As to your other point, I'm sure you will not spend eternity on earth when you have been resurrected. I'm sure you'll spend time in heaven also, before the throne of God.

Post by **_loaves** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:35 pm

Paidion: I apologize about the shortened quote. I wasn't trying to give the impression that you thought that Jesus was "the highest created being." I was simply using your post as a reference point to what the JW believe. I'll edit that post a little. Sorry!

Agape,

loaves