Deity of Jesus for salvation?

[Guest]

I have accepted the Trinity without understanding it which makes me feel uncomfortable because Isaiah 1.13 says "Come let us reason together." That sounds like we should be able to reason things out or why say it. One difficulty i have is the belief that the Holy Spirit is a person because then the Holy Spirit s/b Jesus's Father since he impregnated Mary. In Acts 5 which trinitarians use it says "When you've sinned against the Holy Spirit you have sinned against God" well that could also be true if the Holy Spirit were the influence of God then you would be sinning against God. In Matt 28 to baptize in the NAME of the Father,Son and Holy Spirit may indicate they are one but it does'nt prove the Spirit is an independent person. In Revelation God and the Lamb are in the center of the throne together but no mention of the HS. Yes the HS is given human sounding attributes like you can fellowship or grieve him etc but isn't wisdom given similar attributes in Proverbs 8?
Hank Hannagraff has desrcibed the Trinity as One God revealed in 3 persons dozens of times but if 3 persons have divine attributes how could that not be 3 God's? Jesus is clearly a separate person and he is clearly diety ,does the fact that he always does his Father's will mean his diety is not really his but an extension of his Fathers?

[Guest]

Regarding the Trinity if you compare it to the sun and it's rays being Jesus and the heat being the Holy Spirit then the rays and heat are still part of their source that being the sun. If you have 3 independent,self sufficient persons who are all diety then you have 3 God's. Therefore if there is One God then he can't be 3 persons ,he must be something else other then persons. I'm not sure what but the traditional Trinity description does'nt make sense. Again Isaiah 1.13 says "Come let us reason together."

[Guest]

http://www.chalcedon.edu/articles/0304/ ... tinger.php

[Guest]

It is very refreshing to see this forum where people are not automatically rejected for having sincere, well studied differences from the Evangelical "party line."

I have a question regarding the nature of Jesus while he walked on this earth. We are often told that he was/is fully God and fully man. Nobody brings up the obvious conflict inherent in this statement. The two are mutually exclusive. For example, God is omnicient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. Man is none of these. How then can any person know everything, but not know everything? How can anybody be everywhere on the one hand, but be limited by time and space on the other hand? How can anybody be all powerful, and have limitatations at the same time? How can any person have all of the attributes of God and be fully a man at the same time? It is just not possible. As a man, I wear several hats so to speak. I am a father, I am a husband, I work in my job etc.. I am fully all of those things, but they are all human functions. That is completely different from what is claimed about Christ.

The words "Trinity", "God the Son", "God-Man", "Fully God and fully man" do not appear in scripture. They are Christian jargon, but these words and phrases are almost universally accepted in Evangelical circles to be expressions of scriptural truth. I believe that what I believe as a Christian needs to be fully defensible from scripture. As has already been stated in this forum, not one Christian in ten can offer an adequate explanation of the Trinity doctrine. I would go so far as to say that I have never seen an adequate explanation of the doctrine if scripture is used as the only resource to explain and defend the doctrine. Why then is it used by so many as the dividing line between "cultist" and true believer? Why is this doctrine so sacred, so untouchable?

I am perfectly willing to accept what seem to be conflicting concepts if God explicitly says in his Word that this is the way it is. That is partly what faith is all about. I realize that in this body, I will never understand all there is to understand about God. To me though, many of the claims of the Trinity doctrine do not stand up to the light of scripture. Thanks again for the opportunity to discuss these things openly.

[Guest]

FYI- The last post was me. I had some trouble and accidently posted as a guest.. Subsequent posts will be made under the username of Peter

[Guest]

Regarding the Trinity if you compare it to the sun and it's rays being Jesus and the heat being the Holy Spirit then the rays and heat are still part of their source that being the sun. If you have 3 independent,self sufficient persons who are all diety then you have 3 God's. Therefore if there is One God then he can't be 3 persons ,he must be something else other then persons. I'm not sure what but the traditional Trinity description does'nt make sense.

Yes, the analogy you have given fits the Modalist view much better than the Trinitarian view. Indeed, many people who think they are Trinitarians are actually modalists.

The problem with the modalist view is that Jesus isn't really the same Person as the Father. He talked to the Father as to another Person.
He actually referred to Himself and the Father as "Two people" (John 8:17, 18)

[Guest]

Peter

I have a question regarding the nature of Jesus while he walked on this earth. We are often told that he was/is fully God and fully man. Nobody brings up the obvious conflict inherent in this statement. The two are mutually exclusive. For example, God is omnicient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. Man is none of these. How then can any person know everything, but not know everything? How can anybody be everywhere on the one hand, but be limited by time and space on the other hand? How can anybody be all powerful, and have limitatations at the same time? How can any person have all of the attributes of God and be fully a man at the same time? It is just not possible. As a man, I wear several hats so to speak. I am a father, I am a husband, I work in my job etc.. I am fully all of those things, but they are all human functions. That is completely different from what is claimed about Christ.

Peter, I appreciate this question; it is valid. Let me assure you that God does not exist as contradiction. Jesus is "the Logos", and one of the meanings of "Logos" itself is "reason" or "rationality". Jesus is the paradigm of reason, and doesn't require us to believe contradictions.

Certainly Jesus was not "fully God" and "fully man" in the same sense.
But to say that He was "half man" and "half God" is even worse!

While Jesus walked on earth He was "fully God" in a different sense than the Father was "fully God". According to scripture He had divested Himself of His divine attributes, and became fully a human being. The ONLY thing He retained of His divinity as the only-begotten God, was His identity. He was the same Son of God as He was prior to His birth on earth.

"Before Abraham was, I am."

So in that sense, and in that sense only, He was fully God here upon the earth. In every other way, He was fully human.

[Guest]

I’m speaking way out of my element here because the nature of Jesus as God and man is way beyond my understanding. In fact, I’m just thinking out loud here so don’t take what I say to seriously.

But perhaps we can see the “fully God” and “fully man” in the sense that human beings are made up of a combination of body and soul (or spirit). Without getting into the debate about whether the soul and spirit are separate things, let’s just say that there are at least two facets, something physical (body) and something spiritual (soul/spirit).

When we are conceived, our physical bodies are created by a natural act of joining sperm and egg. But it would seem that God, at that time, also creates our soul and conjoins it with the body somehow. “Knitting us together” in the womb so to speak . As far as I can tell, that soul conjoined to the body is something created by God at the moment we become a human being (which is at conception IMO).

Jesus (the logos) existed in spirit “In the beginning” before he existed in flesh (John 1). When His flesh was “created” in the womb by the Holy Spirit, He had no need for a new spirit for this new body because He already had one. Thus, He is fully God in a spiritual sense, and fully man in a physical sense. This eternal and infinite spirit being joined with the finite body thus veiled His divine attributes by the limitations of a physical body. This makes Him completely dependent on the Holy Spirit within Him for all that He did and said. Kind of like us.

I may be way off here, but like I said, I'm just thinking out loud.

[Guest]

Christopher,

In what sense do you think Jesus received, was filled with, or ? the Holy spirit at His baptism as opposed to prior to the event?

[Guest]

Hi Homer,

I have no idea. That's a good question though. Like I said earlier, I'm way out of my element here. I can't ever seem to fully comprehend the God/Man nature of Christ, but I know the bible teaches it.

I'm one who believes in a 2nd work of the Holy Spirit after a believer is converted, so maybe it's similar to that. Maybe Jesus grew up with the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit (i.e. His own) keeping Him sinless, and then was baptized in the Spirit at His baptism and the Spirit came upon Him in power enabling Him to do His ministry.

If I remember correctly, you believe the indwelling and the baptism of the Spirit are the same event, right? So you may disagree with me on this.

But I'm sure I've spoken at least 2 or 3 heresies here, so I better not go to far with this line of reasoning.