Deity of Jesus for salvation?
Paidion,
You have suggested that I may be a modalist unaware. I do not think so. As I understand it, a modalist believes God manifests Himself as one character, or person, at a time. I most certainly do not hold that opinion. I believe that when Jesus was on the earth and prayed, God was "at home" to hear His prayer. I believe Jesus was, as John stated, "the word" prior to coming to dwell among men, co-eternal with the Father. Scripture informs us that God is spirit, invisible. I belive that the visible manifertations of God in the Old Testament (Angel of the Lord &c) were the preincarnate Messiah.
You have indicated that the Holy Spirit is personal but not a person. That idea is inscrutable to me. As stated, I believe the tenor of scripture when it speaks of the Spirit best fits a trinitarian view, but I do not regard this as a soteriological issue.
You have insisted that The Father and the Son are two individuals, a word that clearly implies divided or separateness. In my mind God is like a triangle, with Father, Son, and Spirit the corners making up one whole, with the Father at the top. There is both unity and diversity within the "godhead".
You apparently do not believe Jesus to be co-eternal with the Father. You state that God begat Him as His first act at the beginning of time. Could you please show from scripture where you got this idea?
As stated I believe Jesus to be co-eternal, that He did not become the Son prior to being born of the virgin Mary, and from that time forward He will forever be the Son.
You have suggested that I may be a modalist unaware. I do not think so. As I understand it, a modalist believes God manifests Himself as one character, or person, at a time. I most certainly do not hold that opinion. I believe that when Jesus was on the earth and prayed, God was "at home" to hear His prayer. I believe Jesus was, as John stated, "the word" prior to coming to dwell among men, co-eternal with the Father. Scripture informs us that God is spirit, invisible. I belive that the visible manifertations of God in the Old Testament (Angel of the Lord &c) were the preincarnate Messiah.
You have indicated that the Holy Spirit is personal but not a person. That idea is inscrutable to me. As stated, I believe the tenor of scripture when it speaks of the Spirit best fits a trinitarian view, but I do not regard this as a soteriological issue.
You have insisted that The Father and the Son are two individuals, a word that clearly implies divided or separateness. In my mind God is like a triangle, with Father, Son, and Spirit the corners making up one whole, with the Father at the top. There is both unity and diversity within the "godhead".
You apparently do not believe Jesus to be co-eternal with the Father. You state that God begat Him as His first act at the beginning of time. Could you please show from scripture where you got this idea?
As stated I believe Jesus to be co-eternal, that He did not become the Son prior to being born of the virgin Mary, and from that time forward He will forever be the Son.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean
We have to agree on what "co-eternal" means.You apparently do not believe Jesus to be co-eternal with the Father.
Most people in our day have been conditioned to believe that time extends infinitely into the past. So no matter what event one speaks of, there was a time before it.
I do not believe that time does extend infinitely into the past. I believe in a real beginning of time. Before that beginning ..... oops! Illogical! There WAS no "before".
Since Jesus was begotten at the beginning of time, there never was a time when He did not exist. He was begotten instantly at the beginning of time. So there was not time when Jesus did not exist, and there never will be a time when He ceases to exist. Therefore He is "co-eternal" with the Father. Is that not so?
Thee early Christians quoted the following passage in support of that "idea". We know that the "I" of Proverbs 8 is wisdom, but the Son of God was considered to be the personification of of wisdom, and thus He was Wisdom itself.You state that God begat Him as His first act at the beginning of time. Could you please show from scripture where you got this idea?
Proverbs 8:22-31
Yahweh created (The word translated as "create" is also used in the sense of "begat") me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth; before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world.
When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was beside him, like a master workman; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always,
rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the sons of men.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Could you provide clear scripture that says Jesus was begotten instantly at the beginning of time. Also, what was Jesus begotten from? Nothing or something? If from something (i.e. God) then you've (according to your own words) made an illogical statement. Because nothing was before the beginning. So before the beginning there was no God?Paidion wrote:We have to agree on what "co-eternal" means.You apparently do not believe Jesus to be co-eternal with the Father.
Most people in our day have been conditioned to believe that time extends infinitely into the past. So no matter what event one speaks of, there was a time before it.
I do not believe that time does extend infinitely into the past. I believe in a real beginning of time. Before that beginning ..... oops! Illogical! There WAS no "before".
Since Jesus was begotten at the beginning of time, there never was a time when He did not exist. He was begotten instantly at the beginning of time. So there was not time when Jesus did not exist, and there never will be a time when He ceases to exist. Therefore He is "co-eternal" with the Father. Is that not so?
Thee early Christians quoted the following passage in support of that "idea". We know that the "I" of Proverbs 8 is wisdom, but the Son of God was considered to be the personification of of wisdom, and thus He was Wisdom itself.You state that God begat Him as His first act at the beginning of time. Could you please show from scripture where you got this idea?
Proverbs 8:22-31
Yahweh created (The word translated as "create" is also used in the sense of "begat") me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth; before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world.
When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was beside him, like a master workman; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always,
rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the sons of men.
Last edited by W3C [Linkcheck] on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
I don't blame you for thinking this way. For we have been so thoroughly conditioned to believe in an eternal regression of time, that we seem almost incapable of conceiving of time having had a real beginning....Because nothing was before the beginning. So before the beginning there was no God?
You used the phrase "So before the beginning... " If time really had a beginning, then there was no before! Thus your question is meaningless, and therefore unanswerable.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Ok, I'll rephrase the question.Paidion wrote:I don't blame you for thinking this way. For we have been so thoroughly conditioned to believe in an eternal regression of time, that we seem almost incapable of conceiving of time having had a real beginning....Because nothing was before the beginning. So before the beginning there was no God?
You used the phrase "So before the beginning... " If time really had a beginning, then there was no before! Thus your question is meaningless, and therefore unanswerable.
You said:
1. Can you defend biblically (show me scripture that says) that Jesus was begotten instantly at the beginning of time?Since Jesus was begotten at the beginning of time, there never was a time when He did not exist. He was begotten instantly at the beginning of time. So there was not time when Jesus did not exist, and there never will be a time when He ceases to exist.
2. Can you show me that your philosophy is accurate in saying that Jesus was begotten at the beginning of time without defining what Jesus was begotten from?
-If Jesus was begotten at the beginning of time, then there was, from what I understand of your view that there was a real beginning of time, at least a first act of Jesus being begotten. This would have to constitute a moment of time, correct? That would put the beginning before Jesus. So there would be an extremely small amount of time at the beginning of time when Jesus was begotten by the father. So Jesus isn't eternal, but close?
Last edited by W3C [Linkcheck] on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
1. Can you defend biblically (show me scripture that says) that Jesus was begotten instantly at the beginning of time?
I can't show you those words. But I can deduce from Scripture that He was. I have already posted the passage from Proverbs which was used by the early Christians, who said He was begotten before all things. John 1:1 states, "In the beginning was the Logos". It doesn't specifically state what "beginning" is meant, but I think it was the beginning of time.
There is also this interesting statement that Jesus made:
I emerged out of the Father and have come into the universe. Again, I leave the universe and go to the Father. John 16:28
Possibly you think this is a mistranslation. But the verb translated "emerged" is "exerchomai", which literally means "come out" or "emerge". The prefix "ek" is a preposition meaning "out" and it occurs not only within the word "exerchomai" but ALSO stands alone as a preposition before "Father". (The word is "ex" before vowels and "ek" before consonants. The word "exit" is an English example derived from the Greek).
The word translated as "universe" is "cosmos" from which we get the English word "cosmology", meaning "a study of the universe." The word is often translated as "world", which is also appropriate since, in a sense the world is the universe of man --- at least until the first astronauts reached the moon.
2. Can you show me that your philosophy is accurate in saying that Jesus was begotten at the beginning of time without defining what Jesus was begotten from?
I think I have stated right from the beginning that He was begotten from the Father. I gave Justin Martyr's analogy of the big fire (representing the Father), and a little fire which was lit from it (representing the Son).
I also mentioned that dogs beget dogs (Dogs are canine), people beget people (People are human), and God begets God (God is divine).
Never have I suggested that I believe as Arius believed --- that the Son of God was begotten out of nothing.
I understand you thinking here. If the act of being begotten constituted a moment of time then there would be perhaps a microsecond of time that occurred before Jesus was begotten. Then, as you say, Jesus would only be "close" to being eternal.-If Jesus was begotten at the beginning of time, then there was, from what I understand of your view that there was a real beginning of time, at least a first act of Jesus being begotten. This would have to constitute a moment of time, correct? That would put the beginning before Jesus. So there would be an extremely small amount of time at the beginning of time when Jesus was begotten by the father. So Jesus isn't eternal, but close?
However, I think that the Father begat the Son in no time at all!
This is difficult to understand.
Perhaps the best analogy I could give would be in the area of mathematics. The old Greek mathemeticians said that when an arrow was shot at a target, it first had to travel half way there. Then it had to travel half the distance that was left. Then again, half the distance that was left, and so on, and on, and on. Thus logically, the arrow could never reach its destination! But we know the arrow DOES reach its destination.
Or take the sum (1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + ....)
The farther we go, the closer the sum gets to the number 1. Yet, we can continue as long as we wish, and we will never arrive at 1. Yet a mathematical proof exists which can show that the INFINITE sum actually EQUALS 1!
Now working backwords, is there any way we could start at 1 and list this infinite sum of fractions? It doesn't seem possible! For what would be the next fraction after 1? Any fraction smaller than 1 which we chose for the "next" one, would not really be "next". For there would be a larger fraction between 1 and the "next" one we chose.
Perhaps the begetting of the Son is analogous. We start at the beginning of time. If the Father begat the Son, our minds tell us that there was some period of time, however brief, before the Son was begotten. But this may not be the case!
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
I believe Jesus did come from the Father. But you can't be certain in what way Jesus came from the Father. What I mean is this: Jesus came as a man at a period of time in known history. Jesus came from the Father in His incarnation. You take it to mean at the beginning of time. I take it as stated in John 3:13, He came into the world, through a woman. He was begotten. He truly was created in the form of a man, yet He also existed before (John 8:58).Paidion wrote:1. Can you defend biblically (show me scripture that says) that Jesus was begotten instantly at the beginning of time?
I can't show you those words. But I can deduce from Scripture that He was. I have already posted the passage from Proverbs which was used by the early Christians, who said He was begotten before all things. John 1:1 states, "In the beginning was the Logos". It doesn't specifically state what "beginning" is meant, but I think it was the beginning of time.
There is also this interesting statement that Jesus made:
I emerged out of the Father and have come into the universe. Again, I leave the universe and go to the Father. John 16:28
Possibly you think this is a mistranslation. But the verb translated "emerged" is "exerchomai", which literally means "come out" or "emerge". The prefix "ek" is a preposition meaning "out" and it occurs not only within the word "exerchomai" but ALSO stands alone as a preposition before "Father". (The word is "ex" before vowels and "ek" before consonants. The word "exit" is an English example derived from the Greek).
The word translated as "universe" is "cosmos" from which we get the English word "cosmology", meaning "a study of the universe." The word is often translated as "world", which is also appropriate since, in a sense the world is the universe of man --- at least until the first astronauts reached the moon.
You quoted: I emerged out of the Father and have come into the universe.
Jesus came from the Father into the universe? So the universe existed before Jesus? I know you are not saying that, but is seems like that verse is. Like Jesus came from the Father into something (the universe) before there was a universe. Seems awkward. I think this means Jesus came from the Father as in the incarnation, and He is stating that He is about to ascend back to the Father. I don't see this going back to the beginning of time.
Also notice what is said in Hebrews 7:3;
Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like unto the Son of God, abideth a priest continually.
Paidion wrote:2. Can you show me that your philosophy is accurate in saying that Jesus was begotten at the begining of time without defining what Jesus was begotten from?
I think I have stated right from the beginning that He was begotten from the Father. I gave Justin Martyr's analogy of the big fire (representing the Father), and a little fire which was lit from it (representing the Son).
I also mentioned that dogs beget dogs (Dogs are canine), people beget people (People are human), and God begets God (God is divine).
Never have I suggested that I believe as Arius believed --- that the Son of God was begotten out of nothing.
Ok, I didn't phrase my question well. The main point in that question is "at the begining of time."
Begotten, yes. To me meaning coming in the flesh, or maybe more Biblically speaking, Jesus is the first born (begotten) from the dead (Acts 13:32-33).
In other words, I don't think it so easy to assume begotten means what you think it means.
Paidion wrote:I understand you thinking here. If the act of being begotten constituted a moment of time then there would be perhaps a microsecond of time that occurred before Jesus was begotten. Then, as you say, Jesus would only be "close" to being eternal.-If Jesus was begotten at the beginning of time, then there was, from what I understand of your view that there was a real beginning of time, at least a first act of Jesus being begotten. This would have to constitute a moment of time, correct? That would put the beginning before Jesus. So there would be an extremely small amount of time at the beginning of time when Jesus was begotten by the father. So Jesus isn't eternal, but close?
However, I think that the Father begat the Son in no time at all!
This is difficult to understand.
Perhaps the best analogy I could give would be in the area of mathematics. The old Greek mathemeticians said that when an arrow was shot at a target, it first had to travel half way there. Then it had to travel half the distance that was left. Then again, half the distance that was left, and so on, and on, and on. Thus logically, the arrow could never reach its destination! But we know the arrow DOES reach its destination.
Or take the sum (1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + ....)
The farther we go, the closer the sum gets to the number 1. Yet, we can continue as long as we wish, and we will never arrive at 1. Yet a mathematical proof exists which can show that the INFINITE sum actually EQUALS 1!
Now working backwords, is there any way we could start at 1 and list this infinite sum of fractions? It doesn't seem possible! For what would be the next fraction after 1? Any fraction smaller than 1 which we chose for the "next" one, would not really be "next". For there would be a larger fraction between 1 and the "next" one we chose.
Perhaps the begetting of the Son is analogous. We start at the beginning of time. If the Father begat the Son, our minds tell us that there was some period of time, however brief, before the Son was begotten. But this may not be the case!
Then what was God "doing" before time? Your in a paradox no matter what, it seems to me anyway. I just don't buy the beginning of time/existence. I do believe in a beginning of this physical universe. That is a beginning of time. One of the reasons for the cosmos is to keep track of time. But I believe before that there were still things going on, because God existed before that point.
Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.
Psalm 93:2 Your throne is established from of old; you are from everlasting.
Last edited by W3C [Linkcheck] on Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:20 am, edited 3 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
double post
Last edited by W3C [Linkcheck] on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
It seems we are at an impasse. You think the begetting of the Son refers to the begetting of Jesus in the womb of Mary. I once thought so too. But all of second, third, and fourth century Christian leaders taught otherwise.
In the great Arian vs Trinitarian controversy, the issue was never whether the begetting of the Son was only His begetting from Mary or not. That was NEVER the issue. The issue in early fourth century, was whether Jesus was begotten "before all ages" (Arianism) or whether His begetting was a continuous, eternal one (Trinitarianism).
It was only the Sabellians (modalism, now called "Oneness") who taught that Jesus didn't exist as the Son of God until He was begotten from Mary.
Prior to that, they said, He existed as the one and only God. Even God was not "The Father" until He Himself was begotten as "The Son" through Mary. Would that be your position?
It is illogical to speak of "before the beginning of time". If there was a "before" then "the beginning" could not have been the beginning of time.
It appears from what you have written that you do not believe in a real beginning of time, that is, that there is an eternal regression of time into the past. If that is the case, the onus is on you to answer your own question:
What was God doing before He created all things?
In the great Arian vs Trinitarian controversy, the issue was never whether the begetting of the Son was only His begetting from Mary or not. That was NEVER the issue. The issue in early fourth century, was whether Jesus was begotten "before all ages" (Arianism) or whether His begetting was a continuous, eternal one (Trinitarianism).
It was only the Sabellians (modalism, now called "Oneness") who taught that Jesus didn't exist as the Son of God until He was begotten from Mary.
Prior to that, they said, He existed as the one and only God. Even God was not "The Father" until He Himself was begotten as "The Son" through Mary. Would that be your position?
Once again ------ There was no before!Then what was God "doing" before time?
It is illogical to speak of "before the beginning of time". If there was a "before" then "the beginning" could not have been the beginning of time.
It appears from what you have written that you do not believe in a real beginning of time, that is, that there is an eternal regression of time into the past. If that is the case, the onus is on you to answer your own question:
What was God doing before He created all things?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Like you said, it seems we are at an impasse. I don't know how to summarize my view. I just don't get to involved in this aspect. Paul mixes the Spirit of Chist, God and Holy Spirit together as one. That's about all I know. I just don't think you can take a few passages about Jesus being begotten and apply them to His beginning, because if He had a beginning, then how can He be God, Since God said there were no God's before are after Him. I don't try to go farther than the scriptures, which means at a certain point, I stop pondering. I wouldn't be surprised to die and find out I was completely wrong. That's why I try not to be so dogmatic about this sensitive and complex issue.Paidion wrote:It seems we are at an impasse. You think the begetting of the Son refers to the begetting of Jesus in the womb of Mary. I once thought so too. But all of second, third, and fourth century Christian leaders taught otherwise.
In the great Arian vs Trinitarian controversy, the issue was never whether the begetting of the Son was only His begetting from Mary or not. That was NEVER the issue. The issue in early fourth century, was whether Jesus was begotten "before all ages" (Arianism) or whether His begetting was a continuous, eternal one (Trinitarianism).
It was only the Sabellians (modalism, now called "Oneness") who taught that Jesus didn't exist as the Son of God until He was begotten from Mary.
Prior to that, they said, He existed as the one and only God. Even God was not "The Father" until He Himself was begotten as "The Son" through Mary. Would that be your position?
God is before all things, even time itself. Did not God exist before the creation? Or did the creation create God? It's not illogical to think of something before time. Here's an (albeit crude) example:Paidion wrote:Once again ------ There was no before!Then what was God "doing" before time?
It is illogical to speak of "before the beginning of time". If there was a "before" then "the beginning" could not have been the beginning of time.
Go to Mars. Make the atmosphere breathable by terraforming. Bring life from earth and let it grow (including humans) Don't teach them anything about earth. Eventually those ("non-modernized") people can be contacted and informed about life on earth and it's history, as well as their own "beginings" on Mars. They would be shocked and think what they saw (on Mars) was all there was. (their point of referrence was limited, just as ours is, because we don't know what "was" before our know point of referrence, this universe. We are unable to see beyond it).
Now carry that all the way back to the creation account in Genesis. God still existed before time in our universe began, but time for us is not time to God. (a day to the Lord is as a 1,000 years and 1,000 years is as a day).
I don't see how you can admit a beginning of time, and then say nothing could happen before that and include God as part of "nothing could happen before". You have therefore given God a birthday, it's the creation. Before that, it seems you are saying, nothing could happen. Isn't God "existing" something? If not then God was born at creation and He is not from everlating.
But again, I don't have a problem with God being above His own creation of the universe. How could God be confined to His own creation?
Time is just how we reconicle things, we should not carry this out to the extent that it puts a limitation on God, the creator.
He was doing whatever He wanted to do.Paidion wrote: It appears from what you have written that you do not believe in a real beginning of time, that is, that there is an eternal regression of time into the past. If that is the case, the onus is on you to answer your own question:
What was God doing before He created all things?

You are assuming that time is something over God. I'm assuming that time is under God. When God created, time began because the phsical universe began. Time only affects the non-eternal creation (God is upholding all things by His will, so creation isn't eternal itself).
Last edited by W3C [Linkcheck] on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)