Deity of Jesus for salvation?

[Guest]

As I understand you, you have no problem with 1+1=1, but 1+1+1=1 is impossible.

Homer, it seems you didn't understand me correctly. Nowhere did I suggest Jesus and the Father are ONE divine Individual. Clearly They are TWO Individuals. In my writing, I quoted what Jesus said to the Jews:

John 8:17,18 In your law it is written that the testimony of two people is true; I bear witness to myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness to me."

Is He not clearly saying here, that He and the Father are "two people"?

I also quoted Jesus' words in His prayer to His Father:

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

Doesn't Jesus clearly indicate TWO Individuals here? --- Namely, the Father, the only true God is the first, and Jesus Christ whom He has sent is the second.

The Father and the Son are in perfect harmony if everything they do, and so are ONE in that sense. But more than that, they are both DEITY. You and I are both HUMANITY, but that doesn't imply that we are the same person. Jesus is DEITY in virtue of the fact that God begat Him. Dog begets dog, and the offspring is canine. Cat begets cat, and the offspring is feline. Man begets man, and the offspring is human. God begets God, and the offspring is divine. The only divine Beings in the Universe are the Father and the Son. For God begat ONLY ONE Son (His first act at the beginning of time). So they, and only they, are Deity.

As for human reasoning, it's the only kind of reasoning with which I have been blessed! The logic of a proposition is independent of who reasons it out --- a human, an angel, or God.

But perhaps it is not human reasoning per se, that you are decrying. Perhaps you are saying simply that human reasoning can be faulty. If I have been using faulty reasoning, I am certainly open to correction. Please point out the logical errors, if any.

[Guest]

Paidion,

Are you saying then there are two Gods? If Jesus and the Father are two individuals (acknowledged in some sense), are they two individual Gods? And If so, is it possible there is a third?


Homer

[Guest]

Are you saying then there are two Gods? If Jesus and the Father are two individuals (acknowledged in some sense), are they two individual Gods?

The many gods of the Greeks, for example, were far from united. They competed with one another, and fought with one another.

But because Jesus and His Father are so totally united, in their natures, in their purposes, in their characters, I would hesitate to call them "two Gods". Yet they are "two Gods" in one sense. This comes out even in Genesis 1:1. Literally this reads "In the beginning Gods created the Heaven and the earth". The Hebrew word, Elohim, is a plural word.
Verse 26 is even stronger: "Then Gods said, 'Let's make man in our own image.' " Genesis 19:24 speaks of two Yahwehs --- One in Heaven, and One on earth. Was not the One in Heaven, the Father? Was not the One on earth whom Abraham addressed as "Yahweh", the Son?

When the New Testament uses the term "ho theos" (the God), it always refers to the Father. But the term "God" is also used generically. It refers to Deity, of which there are only two members. The human family consists of billions of members. The "God family" consists of only two --- the Father and the Son.

And If so, is it possible there is a third?

It is not the case that there is a third, since God the Father begat only One Divine Offspring who is the "only begotten Son". In John 1:18, He is called "the only begotten God" in early manuscripts. The "other" God, the Father of all is unbegotten.

[Guest]

Paidion,

Consider the following:

1. When the testimony of scripture is heard, it is entirely appropriate to apply our reasoning powers to the testimony to decide if we believe it to be true.
2. If we accept it as true, we are not on solid ground to try every idea in scripture by our reason. This is not faith. There are many things stated in scripture that do not seem reasonable, even some apparent paradoxes.
3. Scripture reveals to us that there is God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and God the Spirit, yet scripture also informs us clearly there is only one God. Here our reason fails us.
4. God has clearly revealed to us exactly what his character is like in Jesus. "If you have seen me you have seen the father".
5. God has only partially revealed to us His nature. It is His prerogative, and His alone, to reveal it to us and He has not done so completely. Going beyond what has been revealed to us is speculation.
6. When God and Jesus are declared to be two individuals what is meant? According to the meaning of individual, the word means a distinct entity, indivisible, separate.
7. Two individuals means two Gods in any commonly accepted meaning of the words. Saying they are one because they are of the same nature, agree or are in harmony doesn't solve the difficulty.
8. At one time it was common to refer to the Trinity as three persona or characters. Perhaps this is more understandable, but I would not try to convince anyone this correct.

As for the Holy Spirit being an "it", your whole case seems built on speculation. Rather than trying to make your case on greek words that are ambiguous in their translation and your reason (opinion) , I would recommend giving weight to the tenor of the scripture on this subject. We are to baptize into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (it?). Jesus will send us the parakletos (advocate, intercessor), an it?

As I recall, John is the only writer in scripture that used the word parakletos. Aside from the Gospel of John as a reference to the Holy Spirit, John used it in 1 John 2:1 to refer to Jesus, a person. I realize this does not conclusively prove anything.

I do believe it best not to make dogmatic statements about God which involve considerable speculation.

I will stand by my earlier post about what we need to know to be one of Jesus' own.

Blessings, Homer[/i]

[Guest]

Point #3 in your last reply states:

3. Scripture reveals to us that there is God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and God the Spirit, yet scripture also informs us clearly there is only one God. Here our reason fails us.

Your first sentence is simply false. Yes, scripture speaks of "God the Father", but NOWHERE does it speak of "God the Son". This is a phrase adopted by Trinitarians, and was unknown in the very early Christian Assembly. The scriptures never speak of "God the Son", but "the Son of God". They also never speak of "God the Spirit".

You are not using these phrases because they are scriptural. You are using them because you have accepted Trinitarian thought. Either you were raised to believe in Trinitarianism and to use these phrases, or those through whom you accepted Christianity, taught you to think in Trinitarian terms.

Here our reason fails us.

Yes, it certainly does.

There are two reasons concerning a proposition, that our reasoning fails us:

1. Due to the limitations of our rationality, we do not understand the proposition and/or the arguments used to support it.

2. We attempt to believe a proposition which is inherently self-contradictory.

In my opinion, our reasoning fails us when we attempt to believe in Trinitarianism, for the second reason.

Our reasoning would encounter the same failure, if we attempted to believe that our child's drawing of a square, was not only square, but also circular.

[Guest]

WHOA, where is Steve G when we need him ????

[Guest]

Paidion,

I don’t know if we are just dealing with semantics or if this is what you believe but although the Bible may not use the literal words “God the Son” I think you would be hard pressed not to see that the Scriptures do speak clearly of Jesus being deity in the flesh (which is the point I believe Homer was trying to make).
God can not be contradictive but what may seem to be a contradiction to us may simply be a paradox do to our finite knowledge to grasp the infinite. A contradiction basically states that something cannot be “A” and “non-A” at the same time. Therefore a Trinitarian would argue that their view is not contradictory because they believe that God is one in A (essence) and three in B (person). I see no violation of logic or a contradiction with that statement. And who are we (being finite) to say that God (being infinite) can’t reveal Himself to us in this way? A contradiction would occur if we said that God was one in essence (A) and three in essence (non-A), or one in person (B) and three in person (non-B) which would seem to me to be more of the view which you hold: that there are in essence two Gods, unless I have been misunderstanding your posts which I may be.
Any way, there's my two-cents…go ahead and blast away.

Erich <><

[Guest]

Erich, you are correct about the point I was trying to make. I have been on a long project and am usually tired and pressed for time so I probably am not as clear as I could be.

Paidion, perhaps its just me but I find some of the statements you make unintelligible. IMHO we must place revelation above logic and reason and I'm not sure you do. There are many things in scripture that are rather mysterious - the atonement for one.

In Christ, Homer

[Guest]

Therefore a Trinitarian would argue that their view is not contradictory because they believe that God is one in A (essence) and three in B (person). I see no violation of logic or a contradiction with that statement.

Thank you for you input, Erich. I have repeatedly stated that the Father and the Son are one in essence and two in person, that is, two different divine Individuals. The essence of the two is Deity, as you have stated. I, too, believe that Jesus is "Deity in the flesh".

However, I have found in my discussion with people professing to be Trinitarians, that there seems to be a good deal of confusion. Some who think they are Trinitarians are actually Modalists, or Oneness. They believe that God is a single Individual who expresses Himself in three modes, that in Heaven He is the Father, that on earth as the babe in the manger, and in the rest of his life as a human being, He was the Son, and that in His presence within people, He is the Holy Spirit. Modalists at least do not believe in a logical contradiction. Modalists who know what they stand for, think Trinitarians beleive in "three Gods".

Homer expressed the view that I believe in Two Gods, because I believe in Two Divine Individuals. Could it be that Homer is a Modalist, rather than a Trinitarian?

True Trinitarians believe that the Son, as a second Person or divine Individual somehow emanates from the Father, but is still conjoined to Him in some sense, and that the Holy Spirit as a third Person or Individual, emanates or "proceeds" from the Father, or else from both the Father and the Son. Yet He is somehow conjoined to the Father and the Son. I hate to repeat the Jehovah's Witnesses repulsive reference to the Trinity as a "three-headed monster", and yet a "three-headed" Being is a fairly accurate picture of the Trinitarian position.

When a true Trinitarian says there is "one God", what does he mean? Does he mean it merely generically, as you, Erich, seem to? If so, that does not differ from my own view that the Father and the Son are one God. But if he means that there is one Person, then he believes in a logical contradiction.

I would like to point out that the Scriptures use "God" in two different ways:

1) Sometimes the word is used in the generic sense. In that sense, Jesus is "God". I prefer to translate the word as "Deity", when it is used in that way, in order to avoid confusion.

2) Sometimes the word is used in reference to the Father alone. In the New Testament, when the word is prefixed by the definite article, it is ALWAYS used in reference to the Father.

[Guest]

WHOA, where is Steve G when we need him ????

Steve G is trying to keep his nose out of matters beyond his depth!

Let's hope guest/friend was not too serious in this comment. If the body of Christ needs me to sort out the doctrine of the trinity, it will be leaning on a broken reed!

God has plenty of able advocates on this forum.