Is Jesus in Danger of Hellfire?

Post by **__id_1887** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:23 am

These next quotes are hand typed and not from any website that I am aware of:

2. The Use of Nonbiblical and Apocryphal Materials. As noted above, Jude's use of apocryphal Jewish materials was the chief obstacle to the epistle's acceptance in the New Testament canon.
Allusion to or citation of extrabiblical materials is rare in the New Testament. But given the currency of apocryphal religious works during the period, and the desire of the New Testament writers to communicate the gospel in terms familiar to their readers, it is not surprising to find some occasional use. Examples include 2 Timothy 3:8, which uses Jewish traditions about Exodus 7:11; and the quotation of pagan poets in Acts 17:28; I Corinthians 15:33; and Titus 1:12.
The inclusion of such quotations in the inspired canon, for illustrative purposes or as an appeal to conventional wisdom, does not imply that the apocryphal and nonbiblical documents were themselves inspired, nor that everything is being endorsed by the Bible. It is the use of the particular reference that is inspired, not the source of that reference.

Jude 1:14-15

It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgement on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds and ungodliness that they have committed in such and ungodly way, and all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Another quote:

14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam. The Enoch of Genesis 5:24 is seventh from Adam if Adam is counted first. In vv. 14,15 Jude quotes almost verbatim from a popular apocryphal work, the Book of Enoch or 1 Enoch. In doing so Jude does not imply that 1 Enoch is divinely inspired or that it was written by Enoch himself (Gen. 5:24). The source he uses was familar to his readers and would be useful for confirming his theme of coming judgment on the ungodly (Introduction: Interpretive Difficulties).

prophesied. In saying that Enoch "prophesied" about these men, Jude neither confirms nor denies the popular attribution of this apocryphal text to the biblical Enoch. The quotation from 1 Enoch, in agreement with a host of Old Testament prophecies (e.g., Dan. 7:9, 10; Zech. 14:3-5), teaches that God will come with His heavenly hosts to judge the wicked, and Jude is justified in applying this biblical idea to his specific situation.

quotes taken from The Reformation Study Bible R.C. Sproul General
Editor

Again, I think if we want to allow some extrabiblical texts to be called "inspired" it opens a whole can of worms......Where does it end? Joseph Smith? Others that claim divine inspiration?

Galatians 1:6-10

Resting in Christ,

Haas

Post by **_Paidion** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:22 pm

Haas, will you be dealing with my statement about extra-biblical inspiration with regards to those in the fourth century who chose the books to be included in the "canon" of the New Testament?

What I was trying to show in the matter of Jude quoting the book of Enoch, was not that the book of Enoch should be included in the Biblical "canon", but that Jude quoted words from the book of Enoch, stating that they were uttered by the historic Enoch, the seventh from Adam. Jude was mistaken. So is every statement in the Bible without error? If we are to have a Bible that is infallible, we shall have to exclude these words of Jude.

Post by **__id_1887** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:10 am

Paidon,

You wrote:

You have already decided that God inspired "fallible sinful men" to choose the correct writings to be included in the canon. Therefore inspiration must not be limited to the canonical writings themselves.

I am a sovereignty of God guy. God is on the throne (Proverbs 21:1), but we can revisit that in another thread. Even if God inspired men to write other words that aren't in the canon, what good are they to us? God didn't see fit to preserve them in a way that He preserved the canon. I don't think He is sending us off on a wild goose chase to find them. He preserved what He wanted us to have.

The second quote does address your concern. You say confidently:

Jude was mistaken.

Sproul writes:

In doing so Jude does not imply that 1 Enoch is divinely inspired or that it was written by Enoch himself (Gen. 5:24).

Also a quote from Norman Geisler:

It is noteworthy that Jude does not affirm that Enoch wrote this statement. He simply records that "Enoch said" (v. 14). Jude may have been using a valid oral tradition and not he Book of Encoh.

It appears that Mr. Sproul and Mr. Geisler agree on this one. I guess they disagree with you.

I am sorry to hear that you feel your Bible is fallible. I do not share this opinion with you.

Resting in Christ,

Haas

Post by **__id_1887** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:31 am

Paidon,

A couple of your quotes:

I don't hold to the view that the Bible is inerrant and exclusively inspired. That fact doesn't imply that I claim that some parts are in fact, in error.

and

Jude was mistaken. So is every statement in the Bible without error? If we are to have a Bible that is infallible, we shall have to exclude these words of Jude

.

Have you not just claimed that you think some parts are in fact, in error?

Resting in Christ,

Haas

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:19 am

Have you not just claimed that you think some parts are in fact, in error?

Yes, I have just claimed that Jude was in error.

I must say that this is the first time I have unequivocally stated that any particular part of the Bible is in error.

For I just recently realized that Jude, along with many other early Christians, believe that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, was the author of the book of Enoch. Jude said in his letter that Enoch, the seventh from Adam had prophesied those words found in the book of Enoch.

I suppose one could maintain that the ancient Enoch did in fact prophesy those words, and that the writer of the book of Enoch somehow learned that he had said these things and recorded it in his book.

However, I think this higly unlikely.

Post by **_Derek** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:29 am

I suppose one could maintain that the ancient Enoch did in fact prophesy those words, and that the writer of the book of Enoch somehow learned that he had said these things and recorded it in his book

Paidion,

From what I understand, it is possible that the Book of Enoch was written after Jude. Or at least in contemporary times. (Between 50bc and 70ad is the date I saw).

Since it very well could be the case that Enoch did utter those words, and Jude doesn't say that he's quoting from the Book of Enoch, why ascribe error to Jude?

Even if he was quoting from it, that doesn't mean that he's saying that the whole book is true, or that it's inspired. Again, I do not see why that would make him "in error".

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:00 pm

Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all that are ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. Jude 14,15

Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done and committed against him....[who utter with their mouths unbecoming language against God, and speak harsh things of his glory]. Enoch 2:26.2

The words aren't exactly the same. But that is true with regards to most quotes in the New Testament from any source --- for example, the Old Testament.

This prophecy concerning the Lord's coming is not found in any Old Testament passage, nor in the Apocrypha. The book of Enoch is the only book in which the prophecy is written. It seems highly unlikely that Jude could have gotten it from any other source.

Even if he was quoting from it, that doesn't mean that he's saying that the whole book is true, or that it's inspired. Again, I do not see why that would make him "in error".

Derek, Jude's error is in saying that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied these words, when in fact, Enoch didn't prophesy these words.
It was common in the early church to think that the book of Enoch was written by the ancient Enoch, the seventh from Adam. Irenaeus thought so. Tertullian thought so, saying that although the "scripture" of Enoch is not received by some because it is not included in the Hebrew Canon, speaks of the author as "the most ancient prophet, Enoch". Origen assigned to the book of Enoch the same authority as to the Psalms. So it is not surprising that Jude seemly held the same view also.

Again, Jude's error was in ascribing this prophecy, the work of a later writer, to Enoch, the seventh from Adam.

Post by **_Sean** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:12 pm

Paidion wrote: Derek, Jude's error is in saying that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied these words, when in fact, Enoch didn't prophesy these words.
It was common in the early church to think that the book of Enoch was written by the ancient Enoch, the seventh from Adam. Irenaeus thought so. Tertullian thought so, saying that although the "scripture" of Enoch is not received by some because it is not included in the Hebrew Canon, speaks of the author as "the most ancient prophet, Enoch". Origen assigned to the book of Enoch the same authority as to the Psalms. So it is not surprising that Jude seemly held the same view also.

Again, Jude's error was in ascribing this prophecy, the work of a later writer, to Enoch, the seventh from Adam.

I've also had my share of concern with Jude for the point you bring up. Jude said the actual Enoch said this.

Don't we say that Moses wrote the first five books of the OT because Jesus gives Moses the credit? As well as the Psalms and prophets?

So why would we not accept the book of Enoch as the actual words of Enoch, a man who walked with God, if Jude says so?

If it is so that the book of Enoch does not contain the true words of the seventh from Adam, then that's troubling. Either that or we need to back off on claims made by Jesus as to Moses writing the Pentateuch? Maybe Moses had nothing to do with writing any of it and Jesus was just saying that Moses did because it was widely believed at the time. Isn't that the excuse used for Jude?

Didn't Jude also quote from the "Assumption of Moses"?

Jude 9- Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Post by **__id_1887** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:47 pm

I wasn't looking for the book of Enoch online, but I found it here:

http://www.carm.org/lost/enoch.htm

I was browsing over it a bit and this is something that stood out to me (near the end of the book):

108 1Another book which Enoch wrote for his son Methuselah and for those who will come after him, 2 and keep the law in the last days.

Upon reading this, it would seem highly probable to me that this book could have been written based on ancient Jewish oral tradition. It is clearly refering to the Enoch that is the seventh from Adam and his son Methuselah. Genesis tells us that Enoch walked the earth 365 years prior to God taking him and his son lived 969 years. Seems like plenty of time for some rich oral history to be developed and passed on.

Add to this the fact that I have yet to see any hard evidence to convince me of when the book of Enoch was written (though I have not looked for it myself). I will let the Enoch "experts" here provide that info.

Resting in Christ,

Haas

Post by **_Derek** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:18 pm

Again, Jude's error was in ascribing this prophecy, the work of a later writer, to Enoch, the seventh from Adam.

If The Book of Enoch was written later than Jude, (as some say it was), then it very well could be the case that these were his words, passed down by oral tradition, and were placed in the Book of Enoch.

Is this unreasonable?