Evidence for Evolution - Final video and new website design

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jonperry
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Re: Evidence for Evolution - Final video and new website des

Post by jonperry » Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:24 pm

backwoodsman wrote:You say there's no viable alternative theory, but there is in fact a viable alternative theory. You just don't know anything about it, because you've neglected to educate yourself about it
If the "viable alternative theory" is either some form of creationism or ID, then you are mistaken about my level of knowledge on those "theories". If there is a different theory I have not yet heard of, I'd love a link to an article or video about it.

I was raised in a loosely Old-Earth-Creationist home (the LDS church is sort of a fence-sitter on the topic of Evolution) and took great interest in Creationism of all kinds growing up. I've read the work of Jonathan Wells (icons of evolution is on my desk right now), ID advocate Michael Behe (he and I have emailed a bit back and forth when I was getting permission to use some of his work in video on the evo of genetic information), watched most of Kent Hovand's videos, and I first met Steve Gregg at a talk he did on creation. In my studies I was always eager for someone to tell me something good but instead I was always disappointed. Not once have I seen any of them present an actual competitive alternative to the theory of Evolution. Instead they simply proclaim, without good evidence or sound reasoning, that evolution is not powerful enough to do what biologists claim it can do. They often construct straw-men arguments such as the one presented by paidion above. Some of them even claim that scientists are involved in a giant conspiracy.

Again, here is the challenge I present to those who hate evolution:

Simply give the world a better theory!

People will be resistant to change at first but that resistance will quickly die out when they see that your new theory consistently leads us to more discoveries than the current theory can. This is how science works!

The scientific community has rejected creationist and ID theories because, compared to evolution, they are extremely poor at explaining what we actually see in biology, and because they are extremely slow to lead us to new discoveries. Evolution replaced creationism for the same reason germ theory replaced miasma theory.

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Paidion
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Re: Evidence for Evolution - Final video and new website des

Post by Paidion » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:41 pm

Hi Jon,
You wrote:They often construct straw-men arguments such as the one presented by paidion above.
I was constructing nothing except ridicule.

I can respect a sincere agnostic or atheist. I cannot respect evolutionary theory or worse "evolutionary fact." I think it is ludicrous to presume that all life on earth arose from non-living matter. Indeed a growing number of agnostics and atheists see significant flaws in all current forms of the view. No one has shown that life can arise from non-living matter. Nor has anyone demonstrated spontaneous life arising from non-living matter. Even the recent impressive work that has been touted as Craig Venter's "creation" of life required the use of an "empty" one-celled bacterium which had a life of its own prior to being emptied. This was considered to be creation of life, based on the fact that the "empty" cell that was filled with a new chromosome from artificial DNA, reproduced itself. I may accept man-made creation of life when no parts of living or former living beings are used in the process.

You ask for an alternative theory. Yet evolutionists scoff at "God did it" since that isn't accepted as an explanation. But the evolutionary "explanation" is not convincing since there is no evidence that life can arise spontaneously from non-living matter, and thus no evidence for evolution.

Even if I ceased believing that God is in any way active in the world today, I would never believe in evolution. I would probably become a deist.
Paidion

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jonperry
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Re: Evidence for Evolution - Final video and new website des

Post by jonperry » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:39 am

Paidion,

I'm sure you meant your whale comment as a joke rather than a serious argument but it's a strawman none-the-less. You can only make that argument (or joke) by ignoring the real argument that biologists have put forward, which is based on massive amounts of observable data (which you can easily examine yourself if you'd like), and over 50 years of research done by multiple teams around the world.

I agree with you that putting artificial DNA in the body of a cell with it's old DNA removed is not creating life. Furthermore, the code they put into that DNA was stuff they copied form bacteria anyway. I'm not sure if he's the one claiming to have created life or if it was the media, either way it's a lie on their part. In reality, they stole half of it, and plagiarized the other half. Impressive still, but nothing like actually creating life.

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Paidion
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Re: Evidence for Evolution - Final video and new website des

Post by Paidion » Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:34 am

Thanks for your reply, Jon.

I emailed the link to the news article concerning Craig Venter's achievement to around 20 acquaintances with the title "Did man create life?"
Of the only two persons who responded, one remarked that a more accurate title for my email would have been, "Man copies stick figure." :lol:
Paidion

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Re: Evidence for Evolution - Final video and new website des

Post by backwoodsman » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:14 pm

jonperry wrote:If the "viable alternative theory" is either some form of creationism or ID, then you are mistaken about my level of knowledge on those "theories"...

I was raised in a loosely Old-Earth-Creationist home...
Ah -- so you _have_ heard of old-earth creationism! This is the first you've given any indication of that.

So you know all about OEC. Would you mind explaining, then, why you completely ignore it? Why is most of what you say about creationism targeted at young-earth creationism, and false or otherwise irrelevant when applied to OEC? I've mentioned OEC several times, and specifically asked you twice how something you said fits with OEC, with no response. I suggested you make it clear in your videos that you're referring to YEC, rather than to creationism generally, in order not to mislead viewers, as you're doing now; again, no response.

So, yes, the viable alternative theory is a subset of creationism called old-earth creationism; and yes, it's clear you know much less than you claim to about creationism in general and OEC in particular.

If you want to study evolution and be an advocate for it, fine; do your research and make your best case. If you want to hold a belief system that has much less science and logic behind it than you claim, you're certainly free to do that. But if you want to target and try to discredit others' beliefs, you really need to have an accurate understanding of those beliefs, or you're not going to accomplish much beyond damaging your own credibility and wasting everyone's time.

I'm not an expert in OEC, or any science, or much else except (as Steve says) my own opinion. I'm just some guy sitting on a mountain in the middle of nowhere who reads and thinks just enough to form intelligent, informed opinions on one thing or another from time to time. Yet, even I can see that there's an entire field of scientific inquiry that you're determined to believe isn't there. If you're as scientifically driven as you say you are, why can't you see that too?
Again, here is the challenge I present to those who hate evolution:
What?? Why on earth would anyone hate evolution? That would make as much sense as hating geocentrism, or flat-earth-ism.
The scientific community has rejected creationist and ID theories because, compared to evolution, they are extremely poor at explaining what we actually see in biology, and because they are extremely slow to lead us to new discoveries. Evolution replaced creationism for the same reason germ theory replaced miasma theory.
These statements are incorrect. If you'd specified young-earth creationism, some would be correct and at least one debatable; but without that qualifier you're also including old-earth creationism, which renders them incorrect.

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Re: Evidence for Evolution - Final video and new website des

Post by jonperry » Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:31 pm

backwoodsman wrote:I suggested you make it clear in your videos that you're referring to YEC
I have never once mentioned creationism (young or old) in any of my videos. I suggest you try watching them.

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Re: Evidence for Evolution - Final video and new website des

Post by backwoodsman » Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:23 pm

jonperry wrote:I have never once mentioned creationism (young or old) in any of my videos. I suggest you try watching them.
I found my post, and you're right, it was referring to your comments in the forum, not to one of your videos as I thought I remembered. Should've looked it up before I posted. Quoting from this post from Oct 21, 2014:

"You use the term 'young-earth creationist', so I assume you're familiar with old-earth creationism? Or maybe not; all your arguments are targeted at YEC with no acknowledgement of OEC. If not, you may need to study your target market a little more thoroughly, or else be more clear that you're actually targeting young-earth creationism rather than creationism in general. The latter would seem particularly important in your videos, in order to convey valid scientific information without misleading your audience."

That was over a year ago. I can't see where you ever responded to or acknowledged it, and you're still committing the same error. So can I expect an answer to the question in my last post to be forthcoming? Sooner than a year from now, hopefully?

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jonperry
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Re: Evidence for Evolution - Final video and new website des

Post by jonperry » Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:07 pm

What exactly is your question that I have failed to answer? is it this one?
backwoodsman wrote:I assume you're familiar with old-earth creationism?
If so, I already answered that question in the second paragraph of my Nov 02, 2015 9:24 pm post in this discussion thread.

If that's not the unanswered question you want me to answer, please rephrase the question as I have somehow missed it. My apologies.
backwoodsman wrote: you may need to study your target market a little more thoroughly, or else be more clear that you're actually targeting young-earth creationism rather than creationism in general
I am not targeting creationists with my videos. Instead, I am teaching the general public what evolution is. This is important work because the theory is widely misunderstood. The reason I like to post my videos at theos.org is because creationists (and there are many creationists of various forms on this site) are my toughest audience. I like to see how my toughest audience is interpreting my work, if it is at all effective at clarifying misconceptions, and if any of the information presented seems hostile to this group. I want my materials to be as clear, precise, and inviting to as many groups of people possible. Feedback from this forum has been, and I think will continue to be, extremely helpful as I fine tune my approach. I also get to hangout online with lots of interesting people outside my usual circles.

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Re: Evidence for Evolution - Final video and new website des

Post by backwoodsman » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:18 pm

jonperry wrote:What exactly is your question that I have failed to answer? is it this one?
No, the one in my post from this morning in this same thread, here. I'm thinking of the 2nd paragraph, 2nd and 3rd sentences. I'd really like an answer, and it really is a very simple question (two questions, but they're really more or less the same question).

Actually I suppose it really doesn't matter whether you answer it or not. Mainly I wanted to make sure it's clear to other readers that you really don't know nearly as much about creationism as you say (and no doubt think) you do, and I think I've done about what I can on that for the moment. (And for all I know, everyone else was already pretty clear on that anyway; maybe I was the only one who thought it might not be obvious to someone.) It would've been nice to be able to communicate that to you as well, but of course I realized from the start that that was a real long shot.

So the central question that kicked off all this inquiry into whether or not you really know anything about OEC goes unanswered. If you don't know enough about real, solidly scientific OEC to interact with at least their main points, but can't be made to understand that there's anything about it that you don't know, then you're hardly in a position to tell us why you think your current view better fits the scientific data. Pity; that would've been an interesting and profitable conversation.
I am not targeting creationists with my videos.
Perhaps not, but you're certainly targeting them with many of your comments on this forum.
I like to see how my toughest audience is interpreting my work, if it is at all effective at clarifying misconceptions
Well, I'm glad we've been able to be of some help, but I imagine we could be of even more help if you were interested in clarifying your own misconceptions as well.

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Re: Evidence for Evolution - Final video and new website des

Post by jonperry » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:13 am

If you think I hold misconceptions about OEC, feel free to clear those misconceptions up for me.

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