Evidence for Evolution - Final video and new website design

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backwoodsman
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Re: Evidence for Evolution - Final video and new website des

Post by backwoodsman » Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:22 pm

jonperry wrote:What sort of loose ends do you have in mind?
Well, the first one that springs to mind is here:
http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=61212#p61212

There are a number of others, not just from me but from others as well; but I suppose you can find them as easily as I can, if you're interested. There are several further down in that thread, so they'll be easy to find.

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Re: Evidence for Evolution - Final video and new website des

Post by jonperry » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:51 pm

In that post you seem to be asking two questions, first: Is there any instance where evolution actually explains the facts better than creationism? Then second: What evidence would you accept as proof that the theory of evolution is false?

I'll answer the first question, we can talk about it and when we're done with that I'll answer the second. These are both very good questions that deserve solid answers.

So, what is an instance where evolution explains the facts better than creationism? I have several in mind but let's start with one.

Where did HIV come from?

In our animation "Does Evolution really Matter" we talk about the origin of HIV. See here for our overview (please watch this in full before commenting, it's only a few minutes long): http://statedclearly.com/videos/does-th ... ly-matter/

For detailed information on evolution's role in discovering the origins of HIV, listen to this interview of the scientists involved (it's a bit longer but well worth your time): http://www.radiolab.org/story/169885-aids/

When HIV was first discovered, several prominent Young Earth Creationists proclaimed it to be a curse from God designed to punish sinners, in this case, homosexuals and drug users. There were even popular bumper stickers which read "AIDS: Killing all the right people". I understand that this was not the sentiment nor the conclusion of all Young Earth Creationists but this idea - illness as punishment - was directly pulled from Deuteronomy chapter 28. The conclusion makes perfect sense within the creationist paradigm.

Biologists on the other hand (by the way, many of these biologists were Christians, demonstrating that evolution does not need to be an atheist vs theist issue), understood the true nature of the virus as an evolving biological entity. They used Darwin's ideas to build evolutionary family trees of the virus. By so doing, they were able to trace the virus back to its origins in South East Cameroon where they found it had crossed from chimps to humans who hunted the animals for food.

Knowing that HIV crossed over from chimps to people has helped us fight the disease in two major ways: First, it helped us study the disease and learn how to better treat it (we now have HIV patients who live full healthy lives though few have been completely cured). Second, it helps us prevent new strains of HIV from jumping to humans from apes. Jumps have occurred multiple times since the first big occurrence but have been caught almost immediately each time because we now know what we're looking for.

If biologists rejected evolution in favor of creationism, we would have never discovered the true origins of this disease.

Evolution is not an "Atheist vs Theist" issue. It is about understanding biology. Here is a link to an evangelical group devoted to promoting the acceptance of evolution among Christians: http://biologos.org/

dizerner

Re: Evidence for Evolution - Final video and new website des

Post by dizerner » Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:07 am

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Re: Evidence for Evolution - Final video and new website des

Post by jonperry » Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:32 am

dizerner, I want to answer all of your questions but let's start with just one. I'd like to be able to spend a few hours on it to find you appropriate resources and address it properly. You seem to have several questions in your message. Which one would you like me to answer?

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Re: Evidence for Evolution - Final video and new website des

Post by jriccitelli » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:46 am

If you think you might have a new theory that is better than evolution and would like to start testing it against some facts to see how well it holds water (Jon Perry)
I asked you earlier on this forum how a tube could grow from one point to another and still hold water (blood, oil, food, urine, or air). I don’t remember an answer ‘anywhere’ from an evolutionist, or you.

Your ‘theory’ is still; since things 'look alike' it proves things evolved. Yet it is PROVEN OVERWHELMINGLY everyday that zillions of things that 'look alike' exist with no evolution whatsoever. They exist because they were made, and designed using a ‘mind’.
It is absolutely bewildering to hear that matter can develop itself, and thus because things look alike it ‘proves’ we evolved, rather than being designed. Even in manufacturing designs ‘appear’ to evolve, but this is only the observation, inside the manufacturer things are being redeveloped, thought through, and retooled with minds, it only appears to evolve. Without actual praxis nothing happens. And Evolutionists have no answer to why something would ‘want’ to evolve ‘itself’. Matter has no ‘reason’ to ‘want’ to live longer or better. Only minds have the reason or 'want' to survive, or develop themselves. The fact that some things reproduce themselves must come from something outside of themselves that wanted them to reproduce or improve the design (toasters, lightbulbs and trees don’t improve ‘themselves’ or have any desire to do so)

Again, things look like they are related because they have a common design.
'The fact is that thousands of observable things are related... All living things on earth are related' (your video)
Designs are related because they have the 'same designer'. This is not news to scripture or Theists: 'Everything after its kind' (Genesis 1). A builder uses the best ideas in ‘whatever’ he builds, no matter if it is a boat ‘or’ an airplane. If a propeller works with one, it works well on another. Just because boats and planes both have propellers, fins and wings, that all technically do the same thing, does not mean one developed into the other. All it means is that the design is used for a similar function. A switch opens and closes, so does a door, there a million varieties of switches, did they evolve?? No, what we have was designed and designers were involved; otherwise we would not have switches. They all fit their purpose, yet no one would believe that since switches are in everything, this proves that products have evolved.
If you have any concerns related to whale evolution specifically I can probably address them right away.
I read a short essay called ‘The problem of size’ it points out the fact that you don’t just triple or quadruple the size of something and expect the design to remain the same, huge differences in material structure and physics come into play when making an object heavier, or lighter. Notice the thickness of an elephant and rhinos legs compared to a dog. The heart and everything else has to be redesigned to work in a larger animal, heating, cooling, reproduction, it is all different physics involved, you don’t just inflate the same design.
Tomorrow I meet with a woman who studies bat evolution which I know next to nothing about. If you have any questions about bats I'll run them by her.
Ask her to fold you a paper airplane, and let me know how she does. No offense to this specific lady, but again, science does not design. A scientist could design, but then you have a scientist who ‘also’ designs or engineers, there is a 'difference'. I know scientists that cannot change the taillight bulb on their car, and couldn’t fashion a door to go through and close behind them if their life depended on it. Being a scientist does not mean they even have a clue as to what it means to design and construct something as simple as a mouse trap, let alone build a working mouse. The sonar, like millions of other designs that nature has, involves incredible design and forethought, adjusting to speed, sound, distance, etc. Getting a mammal, or anything to fly is as complex as, well as complex as building an airplane. An airplane that designs itself, guides itself, fuels itself, reproduces itself, and has a ‘purpose’ and ‘reason’ for developing and existing as itself, is unheard of. Reason would tell us that there must be ‘something’ outside of creation that 'wanted' bats to exist. Life and survival come from a conscious desire to do so, matter has no concept of this. Survival and reproducing are also a part of great design, movable type, and the model T being forerunners of this 'idea' of reproduction. The ability to adapt, and quality are all a part of good manufacturing and design.
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Re: Evidence for Evolution - Final video and new website des

Post by backwoodsman » Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:47 pm

jonperry wrote:In that post you seem to be asking two questions, first: Is there any instance where evolution actually explains the facts better than creationism?
I'm not sure how you got that from what I wrote, but it's a non-issue. As on any topic, it's a given that some isolated facts will seem to better support one theory, and others another. The main point, rephrased into a question, would be more like: Why do evolutionists list fact after fact as supposedly solid proof of evolution, never so much as admitting that there's a viable alternative theory, much less explaining why evolution is the better choice?
Then second: What evidence would you accept as proof that the theory of evolution is false?
I'll answer the first question, we can talk about it and when we're done with that I'll answer the second.
I'd suggest you answer this one at your earliest convenience. As it is, all indications are that you're more dedicated to evolutionism as an ideology than to truth; an answer that indicates otherwise is sure to help your credibility.
So, what is an instance where evolution explains the facts better than creationism? [...]
Where did HIV come from?
A virus -- seriously? Everyone knows virii mutate all the time; they can't even make a flu shot that's good for more than a few months or so. Of course that meets the definition of the word 'evolution', but surely you know it's a whole different ball game than evolution as the origin of life, or as large animal species turning into other species, which as you know is the subject at hand. How about a real example that doesn't depend on readers' ignorance? A mutating virus is like tracking hair color through a man's ancestry, but is completely irrelevant to whether he might have evolved from an ape.
If biologists rejected evolution in favor of creationism, we would have never discovered the true origins of this disease.
Of course we would've. Even in what you've presented on this forum and in your videos, it's clear that, as far as science is concerned, it's the relationships between organisms that matter, not how the relationships came to be. The latter may be very relevant when tracking down mutating virii; but again, that's a completely different subject.

dizerner

Re: Evidence for Evolution - Final video and new website des

Post by dizerner » Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:25 pm

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Re: Evidence for Evolution - Final video and new website des

Post by Singalphile » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:43 pm

backwoodsman wrote:... it's clear that, as far as science is concerned, it's the relationships between organisms that matter, not how the relationships came to be.
That statement caught my eye and attention. I had essentially the same thought the other day, but I wasn't able to express it nearly so succinctly.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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Re: Evidence for Evolution - Final video and new website des

Post by jonperry » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:43 pm

Backwoodsman, you ask:
Why do evolutionists list fact after fact as supposedly solid proof of evolution, never so much as admitting that there's a viable alternative theory, much less explaining why evolution is the better choice?
In the case of whales which I present in my first animation, there is no viable alternative theory which addresses all the facts that we find together in comparative anatomy, embryology, DNA, and the fossil record. I hear people say "Whales look like mammals because they share the same Creator" but this only addresses a few issues in comparative anatomy alone.

Young Earth Creationism ignores the fact that leg buds form in embryos of whales, that nostrils form then migrate and fuse on top of the head to form a blowhole, that whales in the fossil record become more and more like land animals as you go back through the sediment layers, and that the fossil record mirrors the blowhole migration we see in embryology. It also ignores the unique similarities between whales and hippos, and It ignores the genetic evidence for a whale/hippo common ancestor.

To my knowledge, there is no viable alternative theory to evolution which can account for these facts together.

In the case of the origins of HIV, alternative theories completely failed. Creationists were so wrong about it in fact, that conservative Christian groups were actually campaigning to stop the public funding of HIV research. Luckily they backed off after it became clear that children and strait church people were getting the virus too.

On your question "What evidence would you accept as proof that the theory of evolution is false?"

I will gladly abandon the theory evolution as soon as an alternative theory surpasses evolution in utility.

To get an idea of the sheer volume of discoveries evolution is leading us to right now, brows the articles of following journals which are devoted exclusively to publishing new discoveries in evolution:
  • Evolution
    Journal of Mammalian Evolution
    Journal of Evolutionary Biology
    Molecular Biology and Evolution
    Journal of Molecular Evolution
    Biological Journal of the Linnean Society
    Journal of Human Evolution
    BMC Evolutionary Biology
Compare these to the discoveries being made by alternative theories.

Dizerner, I'll try to get to your comments and question this weekend. I'll focus on how irreducibly complex structures/systems evolve. My favorite irreducibly complex structure is the stinger of a bee. It's fully equipped with venom, pumps, and muscles allowing it to burrow into flesh after being released from the bee. I've been wanting an excuse to look into how they evolved for a long time now. I can't wait to dig into the literature!

jriccitelli, I will address your problem with size (in whales) either this weekend or the middle of next week. There are some really fascinating studies that have been done on this that I can't wait to share with you. Unfortunately the time demands of my animation company are unusually high since I just released an animation.

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Re: Evidence for Evolution - Final video and new website des

Post by PR » Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:50 pm

Jon, I think the main problem with evolution is the diversity that we all plainly see all around us. There are literally millions of different living animals, plants, etc.

There's no way the evolutionary paridigm can explain how all these came to be with any satisfaction. It's so unlikely that all these came to be by the random undirected process that you call evolution, that it is untenable. At that point it becomes more of a fairy tale than a scientific hypothesis.

microevolution = yes
macroevolution = no way

Phil

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