"Ida" primate fossil discovery

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darinhouston
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"Ida" primate fossil discovery

Post by darinhouston » Tue May 19, 2009 10:09 am

Has anyone seen a discussion of this discovery from the evangelical Christian perspective?

http://www.revealingthelink.com
PRESS RELEASE
THE LINK
Scientists announce the discovery of a 47 million year old primate fossil that is set to revolutionize our understanding of human evolution.
Oslo, Tuesday 19th May 2009

THE UNIVERSITY OF OSLO AND THE SENCKENBERG RESEARCH INSTITUTE REVEAL LANDMARK SCIENTIFIC FIND

Scientists have announced today in New York the discovery of a 47 million year old human ancestor. Discovered in Messel Pit, Germany, the fossil is twenty times older than most fossils that explain human evolution. Known as I da , the fossil is a transitional species showing characteristics from the very primitive non-human evolutionary line (prosimians, such as lemurs), but she is more related to the human evolutionary line anthropoids, such as monkeys, apes and humans). This places I da at the very root of anthropoid evolution
when primates were first developing the features that would evolve into our own. The scientists findings are published today by PLoS One, the open source journal of the Public Library of Science.

For the past two years, an international team of scientists, led by world-renowned Norwegian fossil scientist Dr Jørn Hurum, University of Oslo Natural History Museum,
has secretly conducted a detailed forensic analysis of the extraordinary fossil, studying the data to decode humankind s ancient origins. At 95% complete, Ida is set to revolutionize our understanding of human evolution.

Unlike Lucy and other famous primate fossils found in Africa s Cradle of Mankind, Ida a European fossil, preserved in Germany s Messel Pit; the mile-wide crater and oilrich
shale is a significant site for fossils of the Eocene Epoch. Fossil analysis reveals that the prehistoric primate was a young female. Opposable big toes and nails
confirm the fossil is a primate, and a foot bone called the talus bone links Ida directly to humans.

The fossil also features the complete soft body outline as well as the gut contents; a herbivore, Ida feasted on fruits, seeds and leaves before she died. X-rays reveal
both baby and adult teeth, and the lack of a toothcomb or a toilet claw which is an attribute of lemurs. The scientists estimate Ida s age when she died to be approximately nine months, and she measured approximately three feet in length.

Ida lived 47 million years ago at a critical period in Earth s history. I t fell within the Eocene Epoch, a time when the blueprints for modern mammals were being established. Following the extinction of dinosaurs, early horses, bats, whales and many other creatures including the first primates thrived on a subtropical planet. The Earth was just beginning to take the shape that we know and recognize today the Himalayas were being formed and modern flora and fauna evolved. Land mammals, including primates, lived amid vast jungle.

Ida was found to be lacking two of the key anatomical features found in lemurs: a grooming claw on the second digit of the foot, and a fused row of teeth in the middle of her lower jaw known as a toothcomb. She has nails rather than the claw typical of non-anthropoid primates such as lemurs, and her teeth are similar to those of monkeys. Her forward facing eyes are like ours which would have enabled her fields of vision to overlap, allowing 3D vision and an ability to judge distance.

The fossil's hands show a humanlike opposable thumb. Like all primates, Ida has five fingers on each hand. Her opposable thumb would have provided a precision grip . In Ida s case, this is useful for climbing and gathering fruit; in our case, it allows important human functions such as making tools, and writing. Ida would have also had flexible arms, which would have allowed her to use both hands for any task that cannot be done with one like grabbing a piece of fruit.

Like us, Ida also has quite short arms and legs. Evidence in the talus bone links Ida to us. The bone has the same shape as in humans today. Only the human talus is obviously bigger. X-rays, CT scanning and computer tomography reveal Ida to be about nine months old when she died, and provide clues to her diet which included berries and plants. Furthermore the lack of a bacculum (penis bone) means that the fossil was definitely female. X-rays reveal that a broken wrist may have contributed to Ida s death her left wrist was healing from a bad fracture. The scientists believe she was overcome by carbon dioxide gas whilst from drinking from the Messel lake: the still waters of the lake were often covered by a low lying blanket of the gas as a result of the volcanic forces that formed the lake and which were still active. Hampered by her broken wrist, Ida slipped into unconsciousness, was washed into the lake, and sunk to the bottom, where unique preservation conditions preserved her for 47 million years.

Expert Quotes
This fossil is so complete. Everything's there. It's unheard of in the primate record at all. You have to get to human burial to see something that s this complete.
Dr Jørn Hurum - Natural History Museum, University of Oslo

This fossil will probably be pictured in all the text books for the next 100 years.
Dr Jørn Hurum - Natural History Museum, University of Oslo

This is the first link to all humans truly a fossil that links world heritage.
Dr Jørn Hurum - Natural History Museum, University of Oslo

It's really a kind of Rosetta Stone.
Professor Philip Gingerich - Museum of Paleontology, University of Michigan

In terms of a complete skeleton, it s hard to think of anything else in primate evolution that s as complete as this fossil.
Dr Holly Smith - Museum of Anthropology, University of Michigan

We have not only the complete skeleton but we have also the complete soft body outline and the gut contents.
Dr Jens Lorenz Franzen - Senckenberg Research Institute

This fossil rewrites our understanding of the early evolution of primates.
Dr Jörg Habersetzer - Senckenberg Research Institute

This little creature is going to show us our connection with all the rest of the mammals.
Sir David Attenborough, Broadcaster & Naturalist

The link they would have said until now is missing... it is no longer missing.
Sir David Attenborough Broadcaster & Naturalist

The Link
The findings of the two year study will be revealed exclusively by Atlantic Productions in a special documentary film, The Link, to be screened in the US by History on Monday May 25th, 2009 at 9pm ET/PT. I t will be shown in the UK as Uncovering Our Earliest Ancestor: The Link on BBC One on Tuesday May 26th at 9pm. The film is also being shown by ZDF in Germany and NRK in Norway. I t will be distributed globally by BBC Worldwide.

A major book, The Link, written by award-winning science writer Colin Tudge will be published in the US and UK by Little, Brown and Company, a division of Hachette
Book Group, on Wednesday May 20th.

An interactive, content-rich website about Ida has been launched at http://www.revealingthelink.com.

The full scientific findings from the study are set out in the paper Complete primate skeleton from the middle Eocene of Messel in Germany: morphology and
paleobiology published by PloS One, the Public Library of Science s interactive openaccess journal for the communication of peer-reviewed scientific and medical
research - http://www.plosone.org.

For further information, preview DVDs, transcripts, stills or interviews, please contact:
info@revealingthelink.com

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mattrose
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Re: "Ida" primate fossil discovery

Post by mattrose » Tue May 19, 2009 11:45 am

I think the most shocking thing about such articles is that every time they find something like this they say 'NOW we have it'... 'NOW we have the missing link.' I've seen this about a dozen times over the past 10 years. It makes me wonder why they were so confident before without the necessary evidence AND makes me wonder why the next time they find something, they talk as if they didn't really have anything concrete before.

Did I read it right that the discovery is thought to be a 9 month old specimen? That part didn't seem to fit with the rest of the article.

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TK
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Re: "Ida" primate fossil discovery

Post by TK » Tue May 19, 2009 12:23 pm

i was going to post that article but darin beat me to it.

i checked out ken ham's website but he didnt have anything on this yet.

apparently this is a "missing link" between lemurs and monkeys and ergo (the argument goes) to humans as well.

as of right now I lean toward OEC but i certainly dont believe that we descended from apes.

yes, matt- it appears that what they found was a juvenile specimen.


TK

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mattrose
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Re: "Ida" primate fossil discovery

Post by mattrose » Tue May 19, 2009 2:23 pm

To me, the fact that they herald these 'singular' discoveries is evidence against microbe-to-man evolution. If that view is correct, we should be dealing with hordes of evidence, not getting so excited every few years over one potentially sound specimen. To me, a much more common sense appraisal of such things would be to say we're finding a now distinct species that shared some traits with two other species. Given the number of species on the planet, it's not particularly surprising, in my opinion, to find similarities. In other words, if there were no such animals as 'apes' in the world today and then some scientist discovered one, they would almost certainly interpret it as a 'missing link,' but since they exist today we know they are not a missing link. They are just another species of creature.

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TK
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Re: "Ida" primate fossil discovery

Post by TK » Tue May 19, 2009 2:35 pm

good point, matt. the obvious dearth of transitional forms in the fossil record is simply a huge problem for macroevolution.

TK

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darinhouston
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Re: "Ida" primate fossil discovery

Post by darinhouston » Tue May 19, 2009 5:07 pm

Yes - my lay reading is that this is just a monkey and doesn't seem to be such a big deal, but I'm curious what the "peer-review" from Christian apologists would say.

Maybe it's my ignorance, but how is it that such a finding couldn't simply represent a third species that died out long ago that shares some common traits between lemurs and apes? It might call into question their family tree, but how that shows some evolutionary link between apes and man is lost on me.

I would be much more impressed if they showed me a sensient tulip or uncovered evidence of a civilized society of giraffes using tools and creating art. If it happened once in a cajillion years, why wouldn't there be other species much like our own apart from the ape?

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Suzana
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Re: "Ida" primate fossil discovery

Post by Suzana » Tue May 19, 2009 6:41 pm

mattrose wrote:To me, a much more common sense appraisal of such things would be to say we're finding a now distinct species that shared some traits with two other species.
We probably shouldn’t expect anything resembling common sense from those who wilfully refuse to acknowledge all evidence of intelligent design, and are desperate to clutch at any likely looking straw they come across.
Suzana
_________________________
If a man cannot be a Christian in the place he is, he cannot be a Christian anywhere. - Henry Ward Beecher


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darinhouston
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Re: "Ida" primate fossil discovery

Post by darinhouston » Tue May 19, 2009 11:03 pm

mattrose wrote:Answers in Genesis...

http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... ssing-link
A nice excerpt:
The principles that inform creationists about Ida are some of the same that allow creationists to interpret fossil after fossil hailed as “transitional forms”:

Nothing about this fossil suggests it is anything other than an extinct, lemur-like creature. Its appearance is far from chimpanzee, let alone “apeman” or human.

A fossil can never show evolution. Fossils are unchanging records of dead organisms. Evolution is an alleged process of change in live organisms. Fossils show “evolution” only if one presupposes evolution, then uses that presupposed belief to interpret the fossil.

Similarities can never show evolution. If two organisms have similar structures, the only thing it proves is that the two have similar structures. One must presuppose evolution to say that the similarities are due to evolution rather than design. Furthermore, when it comes to “transitional forms,” the slightest similarities often receive great attention while major differences are ignored.

The remarkable preservation is a hallmark of rapid burial. Team member Jørn Hurum of the University of Oslo said, “This fossil is so complete. Everything’s there. It’s unheard of in the primate record at all. You have to get to human burial to see something that’s this complete.” Even the contents of Ida’s stomach were preserved. While the researchers believe Ida sunk to the bottom of a lake and was buried, this preservation is more consistent with a catastrophic flood.4 Yet Ida was found with “hundreds of well-preserved specimens.”5

If evolution were true, there would be real transitional forms. Instead, the best “missing links” evolutionists can come up with are strikingly similar to organisms we see today, usually with the exception of minor, controversial, and inferred anatomical differences.

Evolutionists only open up about the lack of fossil missing links once a new one is found. Sky News reports, “Researchers say proof of this transitional species finally confirms Charles Darwin's theory of evolution,” while Attenborough commented that the missing link “is no longer missing.” So are they admitting the evidence was missing until now (supposedly)?

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darinhouston
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Re: "Ida" primate fossil discovery

Post by darinhouston » Wed May 20, 2009 8:02 am

Even google's search page image is promoting this:

Image

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