John 5:18 (was Jesus equating himself with the Father?)

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backwoodsman
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Re: John 5:18 (was Jesus equating himself with the Father?)

Post by backwoodsman » Fri May 07, 2021 1:18 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 9:23 am
The basic question is this: "Is John saying Jesus was making himself equal with God or were the jews saying Jesus was making himself equal with God?"
It seems it has to be both. Robertson says the language and grammar mean He was calling God His Father in a sense not true of others. Alford says essentially the same. He certainly knew when He chose His words that that's what the Jews would understand by them, so it seems clear that's what He meant. Otherwise, that would've been the perfect time to clarify the statement; if that's not what He meant, not doing so would seem to be a major error, not to mention making the Jews' charge of blasphemy correct.

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darinhouston
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Re: John 5:18 (was Jesus equating himself with the Father?)

Post by darinhouston » Fri May 07, 2021 3:06 pm

backwoodsman wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 1:18 pm
darinhouston wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 9:23 am
The basic question is this: "Is John saying Jesus was making himself equal with God or were the jews saying Jesus was making himself equal with God?"
It seems it has to be both. Robertson says the language and grammar mean He was calling God His Father in a sense not true of others. Alford says essentially the same. He certainly knew when He chose His words that that's what the Jews would understand by them, so it seems clear that's what He meant. Otherwise, that would've been the perfect time to clarify the statement; if that's not what He meant, not doing so would seem to be a major error, not to mention making the Jews' charge of blasphemy correct.
I don't deny that, but grammatically that doesn't help us determine whether John was himself opining on the matter or merely explaining how it went down and why they reacted that way (regardless of whether Jesus also wanted them to). God was truly his Father in a way not true of anyone else in history. That isn't the point.

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dwight92070
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Re: John 5:18 (was Jesus equating himself with the Father?)

Post by dwight92070 » Fri May 07, 2021 4:02 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 9:23 am
Dwight, it is really hard to have a reasonable discussion with you when you simply deny assertions or re-assert your own without explanation. This is why I have pretty much quit trying to have a conversation with you because it isn't fruitful (in part from your continuing unfounded rebuke and accusations... there is a great difference between argumentative hyperbole and calling someone a grave sinner for refusing to accept what an apostle clearly stated).

Dwight - If, in fact, you or anyone is refusing to accept what an apostle clearly stated, what would you call it, if not sin? If I reject the clear teaching of the apostle Paul, would that not be sin? The apostles were given special understanding of the scriptures by Jesus Himself - Luke 24:45 So it's no small thing to reject their teaching.

Dwight - This is why it is difficult for me, as well, to have a reasonable discussion with you, when you will not acknowledge the obvious meaning of several scriptural passages. EVERY scripture that I've brought up to show that Jesus is God, according to you, doesn't really mean what it obviously is saying. John 5:18 could not be more clear, but, true to form, you always find a problem. I can say the same as you, it is not fruitful to have a conversation with you, because you simply CANNOT accept that plain language means what it says. I could tell you, "It's a beautiful, sunny day." and you would find something in my words to disagree with. You would argue with the apostle John and Jesus Himself!

Dwight - I will not continue to discuss the "textual, grammatical, question" supposedly posed by this verse. It is in vain, totally useless, to continue with you. If you won't agree with plain and clear words, there's no need to delve into it further.

First, the text...

5:18 For this reason (answering their charge of breaking the Sabbath by saying he works on the Sabbath just as his Father had been) the Jewish leaders 34 were trying even harder to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was also calling God his own Father, thus making himself equal with God.


This seems to be initially a pretty straightforward textual, grammatical, question and deserves a textual response. Perhaps I'm slow and am missing it, but I don't see any indication FROM THE TEXT that this was John's own opinion rather than merely relating why they were trying to kill him. At BEST, it's ambiguous what John thought (perhaps Homer or Paidion can assist with any greek language or interpretation help one way or the other). If you believe the text is so clearly John's own opinion, please go slowly and step through grammatically how the grammar works to make this so clear. As I recall, this was your proof-text and if it is ambiguous and is consistent with both views, it's usefulness as a proof-text is lost.

The basic question is this: "Is John saying Jesus was making himself equal with God or were the jews saying Jesus was making himself equal with God?"

Otherwise, we may just have to let "the readers" decide - if there is anyone following this topic, it might be helpful to have other input. I'm not trying to convince anyone - just defending a position and seeking counter-arguments -- not just dogmatic assertions and re-assertions of the traditional view -- that's pretty clear -- but, reasoning out why my position is not the best view.

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Re: John 5:18 (was Jesus equating himself with the Father?)

Post by darinhouston » Fri May 07, 2021 7:47 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 4:02 pm
Dwight - I will not continue to discuss the "textual, grammatical, question" supposedly posed by this verse. It is in vain, totally useless, to continue with you. If you won't agree with plain and clear words, there's no need to delve into it further.
I thought not. But, since you accused me of a grave sin, I felt you owed me a thorough explanation.

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Re: John 5:18 (was Jesus equating himself with the Father?)

Post by darinhouston » Fri May 07, 2021 7:56 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 4:02 pm
EVERY scripture that I've brought up to show that Jesus is God, according to you, doesn't really mean what it obviously is saying.
Well, perhaps that's because I disagree with you and different interpretations support my position. If I agreed with your interpretations, I'd agree with your position. That's when reasonable people "reason together." But, you have no interest in "reasoning" your position - only restating it and bringing in a barrage of other reasons why you shouldn't have to in a particular case. The cumulative effect of bad argumentation helps no one. If you are only interested in declaring dogma, this may not be the best place to "save the world." Only prophets and apostles can avoid convincing by sound reason and argumentation.

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dwight92070
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Re: John 5:18 (was Jesus equating himself with the Father?)

Post by dwight92070 » Fri May 07, 2021 9:08 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 7:56 pm
dwight92070 wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 4:02 pm
EVERY scripture that I've brought up to show that Jesus is God, according to you, doesn't really mean what it obviously is saying.
Well, perhaps that's because I disagree with you and different interpretations support my position. If I agreed with your interpretations, I'd agree with your position. That's when reasonable people "reason together." But, you have no interest in "reasoning" your position

Dwight - When the sky is blue, there's no need to "reason" that it is really red. I think I'm a very reasonable person, when there's really something to reason about.

The cumulative effect of bad argumentation helps no one.

Dwight - So I will assume that you're including your bad argumentation.

If you are only interested in declaring dogma, this may not be the best place to "save the world."

Dwight - Then why are you here?

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Paidion
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Re: John 5:18 (was Jesus equating himself with the Father?)

Post by Paidion » Fri May 07, 2021 10:04 pm

Dwight wrote:Claiming to be God's Son was claiming to be God...
Hmmmm... Let's see how that would work in my own personal case.
Gordon is my father. Claiming to be Gordon's son is claiming to be Gordon.
Paidion

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commonsense
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Re: John 5:18 (was Jesus equating himself with the Father?)

Post by commonsense » Sat May 08, 2021 12:11 am

darinhouston wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 9:23 am
Otherwise, we may just have to let "the readers" decide - if there is anyone following this topic, it might be helpful to have other input.
Israel was the son of God.
"Israel is my firstborn son."
"All who are led by the Spirit are sons of God."
If you are born in the Spirit of God, then God is your Father and you are His offspring.

So, claiming to be a son of God, or claiming that God is your Father is not blasphemous.

The Jews themselves were claiming to be the son of God ( Israel) and claiming to be God's authority( speaking for God.) Jesus was basically telling them that they weren't sons of God, they weren't a part of Israel, God was not their Father, and their authority didn't come from God.(They weren't God's voice.)

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Re: John 5:18 (was Jesus equating himself with the Father?)

Post by dwight92070 » Sat May 08, 2021 5:40 am

Paidion wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 10:04 pm
Dwight wrote:Claiming to be God's Son was claiming to be God...
Hmmmm... Let's see how that would work in my own personal case.
Gordon is my father. Claiming to be Gordon's son is claiming to be Gordon.
Dwight - You can't compare it with your own personal case. You are not the Son of God, Jesus, and your father, Gordon, is not God the Father. You and your father are only men. Jesus and His Father ARE the Creator. Remember Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I AM"

Dwight - I am simply accepting the words of the apostle John, but you are rejecting them: " ... because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

Dwight - So for Jesus to call God His own Father (obviously claiming to be God's Son), He was making Himself equal with God (obviously claiming to be God), according to the apostle John, the author of that verse, and the book of John. Which, again, is why they wanted to stone Him.

Dwight - You can't "reason" that away, as much as you would like to.

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Homer
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Re: John 5:18 (was Jesus equating himself with the Father?)

Post by Homer » Sat May 08, 2021 11:23 am

In the first chapter of Hebrews we find God speaking to His Son:

Hebrews 1:8-9
New American Standard Bible
8. But regarding the Son He says,
“Your throne, God
(ho theos, nominative,with the definite article,) is forever and ever,
And the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of His kingdom.
9. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of joy above Your companions.”


So God the Father addresses the Son as "the God", the nominative case being the "naming" case and with the definite (determiner) article.
Last edited by Homer on Sat May 08, 2021 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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