John 5:18 (was Jesus equating himself with the Father?)

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darinhouston
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John 5:18 (was Jesus equating himself with the Father?)

Post by darinhouston » Mon May 03, 2021 9:55 pm

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dwight92070 wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:08 pm
Dwight - If you're referring to John 5:18, I have not made the point previously, concerning this verse, that I made here. Just because I use the same verse that I have used before, does not mean I am making the same point about it that I made previously. Did you even see this NEW point, or do you not care to even acknowledge it?
Well, I guess it was buried within the other points - we've dealt with that passage so many times, it didn't strike me as new - but, again, it's quite a drift from the topic at hand and is worthy of a separate topic. Briefly, though, do you mean "equal" like Joseph and Pharoah (see Gen 44:18)? Equality is not the same thing as identity.
dwight92070 wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:08 pm
Actually, ALL of the things you note (whether done by the Apostles or Jesus) can only be done by God or by His permission. Jesus did nothing that He wasn't granted to do by the Father and all was done not for his own glory but the glory of the Father. It was the Father that glorified Jesus after His life and death of obedience.

Dwight - Here too, you simply ignore my point. Twenty-two out of the 26 things could never be done by the apostles. It takes God to do those things.
No, I think you're missing mine. Whether 2 or 22 or 26, I agree that it takes God to do all of them - but, even just one of them proves the point that this doesn't make them God any more than it makes Jesus God. God authorizes or empowers them, and it seems he did the same through Jesus. The fact that someone other than Jesus can do ANYTHING that only God can do or authorize negates the proof that Jesus is GOD because he does things only God can do or permit.

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John 5:18 (was Jesus equating himself with the Father?)

Post by dwight92070 » Tue May 04, 2021 8:22 am

darinhouston wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:55 pm
dwight92070 wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:08 pm
Dwight - If you're referring to John 5:18, I have not made the point previously, concerning this verse, that I made here. Just because I use the same verse that I have used before, does not mean I am making the same point about it that I made previously. Did you even see this NEW point, or do you not care to even acknowledge it?
Well, I guess it was buried within the other points - we've dealt with that passage so many times, it didn't strike me as new - but, again, it's quite a drift from the topic at hand and is worthy of a separate topic. Briefly, though, do you mean "equal" like Joseph and Pharoah (see Gen 44:18)?
Equality is not the same thing as identity.

Dwight - The NEW point is that whenever Jesus calls God His own Father, He is making Himself equal with God. "Equal" like Joseph and Pharoah? Of course not. "Equal" like the Jews understood it, so that they wanted to stone Him. He was equating Himself to God! I don't know how it can get any more clear. Did John qualify "equal", like you just did, to make it like Joseph and Pharoah? NO, he assumed that the ordinary reader would understand exactly what he is talking about.

Dwight - But leave it to you and Paidon to muddy the waters of plain language, so that you demote the Son of God Himself! From now on, whenever I see the words "Son of God" in scripture, or ANY reference to Jesus being God's Son, I will always know that we're speaking of the ONLY ONE in all of history who is EQUAL to GOD. This is why I say, as do millions, that Jesus IS God!

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John 5:18 (was Jesus equating himself with the Father?)

Post by darinhouston » Tue May 04, 2021 9:14 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 8:22 am
darinhouston wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:55 pm
dwight92070 wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:08 pm
Dwight - If you're referring to John 5:18, I have not made the point previously, concerning this verse, that I made here. Just because I use the same verse that I have used before, does not mean I am making the same point about it that I made previously. Did you even see this NEW point, or do you not care to even acknowledge it?
Well, I guess it was buried within the other points - we've dealt with that passage so many times, it didn't strike me as new - but, again, it's quite a drift from the topic at hand and is worthy of a separate topic. Briefly, though, do you mean "equal" like Joseph and Pharoah (see Gen 44:18)?
Equality is not the same thing as identity.

Dwight - The NEW point is that whenever Jesus calls God His own Father, He is making Himself equal with God. "Equal" like Joseph and Pharoah? Of course not. "Equal" like the Jews understood it, so that they wanted to stone Him. He was equating Himself to God! I don't know how it can get any more clear. Did John qualify "equal", like you just did, to make it like Joseph and Pharoah? NO, he assumed that the ordinary reader would understand exactly what he is talking about.

Dwight - But leave it to you and Paidon to muddy the waters of plain language, so that you demote the Son of God Himself! From now on, whenever I see the words "Son of God" in scripture, or ANY reference to Jesus being God's Son, I will always know that we're speaking of the ONLY ONE in all of history who is EQUAL to GOD. This is why I say, as do millions, that Jesus IS God!
Whether it's true or not, that's some pretty bad logic. To suggest that calling God his father would have immediately made them think he was claiming to be God Himself is utter insanity unless you have context or other passages or examples in their exchange to suggest this. Stone him for it? Sure, they'd have stoned him if he claimed to be their high priest and could enter into the holy of holies. Blasphemy was a wide range of error. Claiming in any way to have a special place as God's Son or having His "authority" on earth or to even be the "anointed" Messiah would have warranted stoning as being blasphemy. In fact, all of their comments to him throughout this period were around his claims to be the Messiah, not how he could possibly claim to be God (something you'd expect from them and his disciples if they really thought he was saying this). Being in the spiritual "family" of God is enough and that seems to be all he was claiming (not that this is nothing). Claiming to be the son of Pharaoh or having the authority of Pharaoh as his prince would be treasonous - I think you fail to appreciate how these people viewed royalty and authority. Quick question by way of example: why was Stephen stoned? Did he claim to be God? Was it because of something he claimed about Jesus being God or merely something he said about their authority and the teachings they held sacred?

Do you not think it at least a little strange not to have some record of a Jewish follower asking "how is that you claim to be God Himself when you're standing here before us as a man, anointed or not?" No, all the issues are around how he could claim to be Messiah, and John himself states affirmatively that proving THIS POINT is why he wrote his gospel account - not to prove he was God.

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John 5:18 (was Jesus equating himself with the Father?)

Post by dwight92070 » Tue May 04, 2021 8:45 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:14 am

Whether it's true or not, that's some pretty bad logic. To suggest that calling God his father would have immediately made them think he was claiming to be God Himself is utter insanity unless you have context or other passages or examples in their exchange to suggest this.

Dwight - What is utter insanity is for you to question the apostle John's logic, He is the one who concluded that Jesus was equating Himself with God, by calling God HIs own Father. I think your denial of that is a great sin. This is a plain statement by the apostle John, which you reject. There is no justificaton for doing that.

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John 5:18 (was Jesus equating himself with the Father?)

Post by darinhouston » Tue May 04, 2021 9:34 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 8:45 pm
darinhouston wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:14 am

Whether it's true or not, that's some pretty bad logic. To suggest that calling God his father would have immediately made them think he was claiming to be God Himself is utter insanity unless you have context or other passages or examples in their exchange to suggest this.

Dwight - What is utter insanity is for you to question the apostle John's logic, He is the one who concluded that Jesus was equating Himself with God, by calling God HIs own Father. I think your denial of that is a great sin. This is a plain statement by the apostle John, which you reject. There is no justificaton for doing that.
Since you've yet again made an accusation - this time accusing me of a "great sin," let's look at this passage together.

16And for this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath.
17But Jesus answered them, “My Father is always working, and I am always working.”
18For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because he not only was “breaking the Sabbath,” but also was calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.


So, what is John saying here? You say John is making a plain statement equating Jesus with God. I do deny that.

He actually makes two claims as to why they sought to stone him (not the one simple statement). Importantly, neither of these statements are "plainly" said by John to state the truth of the matter. Both are essentially hearsay and from his perception of their motives and intentions (albeit inspired and probably plain from John's further awareness). But, it's important that he's giving THEIR reasons for seeking to stone him, not stating his own perception of why what Jesus said might be blasphemous.

Let's look at each of them.

First, he states that the Jews thought Jesus was "breaking the Sabbath." Incidentally, this is something Jesus himself then denies - is John then in conflict with Jesus? Of course not. John was merely stating the Jews' position, not his own. That one is easy, but the next is really no different. Let's continue....

Second was icing on the cake (they wanted to kill him "all the more"). He states the simple fact that that Jesus was calling God his Father, but then he states further (from the Jews' perspective, not necessarily his own) that the Jews thought this statement made himself "equal with God." It is at best ambiguous what John thought other than conveying the story.

But, let's discuss this second one further....

Central to whether I'm committing a great sin by denying something plainly stated by John, I do not believe John is saying that Jesus' statement equated Jesus with God. Aside from my point above that it was not necessarily John's judgment that he was doing this, there is a subtle but vey important difference between "equating" (your words, not John's) and making one "equal" to (you have actually mis-quoted John, whether intentionally or not). Equating Jesus with God would be a very trinitarian notion - suggesting that Jesus "was" God - had ontological "identity" with God and not just being in the same "league" with God in some capacity. It is this latter notion which I believe the Jews had in mind (not necessarily John). From even an earthly perspective, It is somewhat nonsensical to suggest in that culture that claiming to be a man's son made him identical to his father. It would even have been unheard of to suggest that there was some real full "equality" between a son and his father. But, they very much had the notion that claiming to be a man's son implied some "family prerogatives" of the father - an authority derived from that family - that sort of thing. This is perfectly illustrated in my earlier suggestion that Joseph (yes, a type of Christ) was considered "equal" with Pharaoh. It is in this sense that I believe they meant to stone him - but, in whatever sense they meant "equal," why would you take your theology from the group of Jews who were consistently used by John as examples of error? Notably, right after this in John 5, Jesus makes it clear that the Father was greater than he was and that he obeyed his Father. This would be an odd thing for John to reinforce if he had just immediately previous to that been trying to make the point that Jesus was fully and unequivocally equal with the Father. (or for Jesus to make after claiming to be fully equal in every way with the Father).

You'll no doubt accuse me of being "clever" or being too analytical in exegesis or considering context and scope, but no apologies for that. In the end, I hope you see that it's at least not so plainly stated that you can fairly accuse me of a great sin by denying John. If so, I'm not alone even among many traditional evangelical scholars.

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Re: John 5:18 (was Jesus equating himself with the Father?)

Post by dwight92070 » Wed May 05, 2021 8:03 am

darinhouston wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:34 pm

Whether it's true or not, that's some pretty bad logic. To suggest that calling God his father would have immediately made them think he was claiming to be God Himself is utter insanity unless you have context or other passages

Dwight - As a matter of fact, I do John 19:7 I guess it's not utterly insane after all. You often use hyperbole, as if that gives your argument validity. It was just as blasphemous for Him to claim He was God's Son as it was to claim He was God.

First, he states that the Jews thought Jesus was "breaking the Sabbath." Incidentally, this is something Jesus himself then denies - is John then in conflict with Jesus? Of course not. John was merely stating the Jews' position, not his own. That one is easy, but the next is really no different.

Dwight - You are mistaken on both counts. Not only did John admit, as Jesus Himself did, that He was breaking the Sabbath, but also that Jesus was making Himself equal with God. In response to their accusation that Jesus was breaking the Sabbath (verse 16), Jesus says (verse 17), "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." So Jesus is saying "Yes", that He works every day, including the Sabbath, just like His Father does. In Genesis, God rested from His creation work, but it doesn't say that He rested totally from anything else, nor does it say that He rests every Sabbath Day. In fact, Jesus did many miracles on the Sabbath, showing us plainly that the Father Himself DOES work on the Sabbath.

This is perfectly illustrated in my earlier suggestion that Joseph (yes, a type of Christ) was considered "equal" with Pharaoh. It is in this sense that I believe they meant to stone him

Dwight - On the contrary, we can see clearly their thinking in other verses: John 10:33 " ... For a good work, we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." It's a ridiculous to conclude that they had any "Joseph/Pharoah" principle in mind. We see their thinking again in John 19:7: "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God." This shows us clearly, in their thinking, that it was blasphemy to claim to be the Son of God, just like it was blasphemy to claim to be God. By the way, the apostle John agreed, because that WAS his commentary, not just what they were thinking.

Dwight - Equating Himself or making Himself equal are NOT two different concepts. They are the same thing.

in whatever sense they meant "equal," why would you take your theology from the group of Jews who were consistently used by John as examples of error?

Dwight - I don't, I take my theology from what the apostle John himself said.

Notably, right after this in John 5, Jesus makes it clear that the Father was greater than he was and that he obeyed his Father. This would be an odd thing for John to reinforce if he had just immediately previous to that been trying to make the point that Jesus was fully and unequivocally equal with the Father. (or for Jesus to make after claiming to be fully equal in every way with the Father).

Dwight - Not at all, we see throughout the book of John that Jesus and the Father are separate and yet One. John is foundational in the Trinity doctrine.

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Re: John 5:18 (was Jesus equating himself with the Father?)

Post by darinhouston » Thu May 06, 2021 4:33 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:34 pm

]Whether it's true or not, that's some pretty bad logic. To suggest that calling God his father would have immediately made them think he was claiming to be God Himself is utter insanity unless you have context or other passages

Dwight - As a matter of fact, I do John 19:7 I guess it's not utterly insane after all. You often use hyperbole, as if that gives your argument validity. It was just as blasphemous for Him to claim He was God's Son as it was to claim He was God.
Well, that’s quite a logical leap. I concede they stoned him for claiming to be Son of God. That’s exactly what John 19:7 says. I also agree that it is just as blasphemous to claim to be God’s Son as it is to claim he was God, himself. But, this does nothing but support my own position - your position is not only that he claimed to be God’s son and having authority or equality with God as such, but that they stoned him for claiming to be God. This does not help your argument.



Dwight wrote:First, he states that the Jews thought Jesus was "breaking the Sabbath." Incidentally, this is something Jesus himself then denies - is John then in conflict with Jesus? Of course not. John was merely stating the Jews' position, not his own. That one is easy, but the next is really no different.

Dwight - You are mistaken on both counts. Not only did John admit, as Jesus Himself did, that He was breaking the Sabbath, but also that Jesus was making Himself equal with God. In response to their accusation that Jesus was breaking the Sabbath (verse 16), Jesus says (verse 17), "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." So Jesus is saying "Yes", that He works every day, including the Sabbath, just like His Father does. In Genesis, God rested from His creation work, but it doesn't say that He rested totally from anything else, nor does it say that He rests every Sabbath Day. In fact, Jesus did many miracles on the Sabbath, showing us plainly that the Father Himself DOES work on the Sabbath.

This is perfectly illustrated in my earlier suggestion that Joseph (yes, a type of Christ) was considered "equal" with Pharaoh. It is in this sense that I believe they meant to stone him
Jesus never admitted and John never stated that Jesus “broke” the Sabbath - yes, all agreed that he worked on the Sabbath, but — but again — it was the error of the jews to think he “broke” it - Jesus corrected them by telling them the Sabbath was a servant, not a rule (nothing was broken). Jesus never broke any rule - in fact, in this case, he upheld it when it is properly understood. Again, you are siding with the jews against Jesus and John. This does not help your position.

Dwight wrote: Dwight - On the contrary, we can see clearly their thinking in other verses: John 10:33 " ... For a good work, we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." It's a ridiculous to conclude that they had any "Joseph/Pharoah" principle in mind. We see their thinking again in John 19:7: "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God." This shows us clearly, in their thinking, that it was blasphemy to claim to be the Son of God, just like it was blasphemy to claim to be God. By the way, the apostle John agreed, because that WAS his commentary, not just what they were thinking.
I believe we’ve discussed John 10:33 before - first, there is no article - I don’t think this reference is specifically thinking of Yahweh - theos without the article, etc. But, also, — again — what THEY thought isn’t the point. You claimed I sinned by disagreeing with John and that he believes Jesus was claiming to be God - this verse isn’t anymore helpful than John 19:7. You say that this isn’t just what they were thinking but was John’s commentary - what makes you think so? At least in this passage, it’s a direct quote of the jews. “The Jews answered him, saying ‘xxxx’”

As to Joseph, I never suggested they had Joseph in mind, but it's an example where this form of "equality" without "identity" is considered in the Bible and is a pretty good parallel, seeing as Joseph is meant to be a type of the Christ.
Dwight wrote:
Dwight - Equating Himself or making Himself equal are NOT two different concepts. They are the same thing.
Not always. The term, even in English, has a bit of a semantic range - but the important thing in this discussion is that you ascribe it the most elevated and dogmatic position with very little merit other than it is consistent with your interpretation of other passages. What you fail to appreciate is that it is also consistent with mine.
Dwight wrote: in whatever sense they meant "equal," why would you take your theology from the group of Jews who were consistently used by John as examples of error?


Dwight - I don't, I take my theology from what the apostle John himself said.
[see above]
Dwight wrote: Notably, right after this in John 5, Jesus makes it clear that the Father was greater than he was and that he obeyed his Father. This would be an odd thing for John to reinforce if he had just immediately previous to that been trying to make the point that Jesus was fully and unequivocally equal with the Father. (or for Jesus to make after claiming to be fully equal in every way with the Father).

Dwight - Not at all, we see throughout the book of John that Jesus and the Father are separate and yet One. John is foundational in the Trinity doctrine.
We simply disagree here. Once you get past a couple of basic concepts and preconceptions, I find the focus of John to be very supportive of the human messiah aspect of Jesus (even if the Trinity is true, I don't believe that is the focus of GJohn). Notably, John tells us his thesis....

John 20:31... "but these are written so that you believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and so that by believing you will have life in his name)."

As such, everything should (to the extent it can be) interpreted in light of his stated objective.

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Re: John 5:18 (was Jesus equating himself with the Father?)

Post by dwight92070 » Thu May 06, 2021 10:58 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 4:33 pm


Well, that’s quite a logical leap. I concede they stoned him for claiming to be Son of God. That’s exactly what John 19:7 says. I also agree that it is just as blasphemous to claim to be God’s Son as it is to claim he was God, himself. But, this does nothing but support my own position - your position is not only that he claimed to be God’s son and having authority or equality with God as such, but that they stoned him for claiming to be God. This does not help your argument.

Dwight - Sure it does. Claiming to be God's Son was claiming to be God, according to John.

Jesus never admitted and John never stated that Jesus “broke” the Sabbath - yes, all agreed that he worked on the Sabbath, but — but again — it was the error of the jews to think he “broke” it -

Dwight - Working on the Sabbath WAS breaking the sabbath. Surely you realize that. Not only the Jews thought He was breaking it, but John SAID He was breaking it. Jesus Himself said He was breaking it by admitting that He was working on the sabbath.

Jesus corrected them by telling them the Sabbath was a servant, not a rule (nothing was broken). Jesus never broke any rule - in fact, in this case, he upheld it when it is properly understood.

Dwight - The Sabbath was more than a rule - it was a commandment and yes, Jesus broke the commandment. Just like a police officer has the authority to go over the speed limit, Jesus had the authority to violate this ritual law, if He so chose. He broke LOTS of rules. He went through Samaria and associated with them, He associated with tax collectors and prostitutes, He touched lepers, He healed on the sabbath, He drove out the moneychangers in the temple, He rebuked the "spiritual leaders" of Israel and called them hypocrites

Dwight wrote: Dwight - On the contrary, we can see clearly their thinking in other verses: John 10:33 " ... For a good work, we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."
I believe we’ve discussed John 10:33 before - first, there is no article - I don’t think this reference is specifically thinking of Yahweh

Dwight - Of course it's Yahweh. It makes no sense otherwise. What are you thinking? Is it going to say, "...and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be another man?" No, obviously that would be ridiculous.

But, also, — again — what THEY thought isn’t the point.

Dwight - Of course it's the point. They wanted to stone Him for blasphemy, claiming to be God (Yahweh).
Dwight wrote:
Dwight - Equating Himself or making Himself equal are NOT two different concepts. They are the same thing.
Dwight - Not at all, we see throughout the book of John that Jesus and the Father are separate and yet One. John is foundational in the Trinity doctrine.
We simply disagree here. Once you get past a couple of basic concepts and preconceptions, I find the focus of John to be very supportive of the human messiah aspect of Jesus

Dwight - You've got to be kidding. No other book extols the Deity of Jesus like John.

Notably, John tells us his thesis....

John 20:31... "but these are written so that you believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and so that by believing you will have life in his name)."

Dwight - Given John's commentary earlier, we could understand John 20:31 to be saying: "but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus, (Who made Himself equal with God), is the Christ, the Son of God (Who is also equal with God), and that believing you may have life in His name."

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Re: John 5:18 (was Jesus equating himself with the Father?)

Post by darinhouston » Fri May 07, 2021 9:23 am

Dwight, it is really hard to have a reasonable discussion with you when you simply deny assertions or re-assert your own without explanation. This is why I have pretty much quit trying to have a conversation with you because it isn't fruitful (in part from your continuing unfounded rebuke and accusations... there is a great difference between argumentative hyperbole and calling someone a grave sinner for refusing to accept what an apostle clearly stated). However, I thought this might be a worthwhile discussion for others to engage. I regret trying, but let's try one more time to have a simple and very discrete discussion to see if I can see where you're coming from on this since you are so insistent and dogmatic in your premise. We don't have to agree with each other, but we should be able to get to a point where we understand each other's reasoning. If not, there's really no point in dialogue.

So, please try and limit this to exegesis of a single text and single issue for a start - a fundamental position where we disagree is whether, in John 5:18, John is stating his own opinion or merely explaining the opinions of the jews in this confrontation.

First, the text...

5:18 For this reason (answering their charge of breaking the Sabbath by saying he works on the Sabbath just as his Father had been) the Jewish leaders 34 were trying even harder to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was also calling God his own Father, thus making himself equal with God.


This seems to be initially a pretty straightforward textual, grammatical, question and deserves a textual response. Perhaps I'm slow and am missing it, but I don't see any indication FROM THE TEXT that this was John's own opinion rather than merely relating why they were trying to kill him. At BEST, it's ambiguous what John thought (perhaps Homer or Paidion can assist with any greek language or interpretation help one way or the other). If you believe the text is so clearly John's own opinion, please go slowly and step through grammatically how the grammar works to make this so clear. As I recall, this was your proof-text and if it is ambiguous and is consistent with both views, it's usefulness as a proof-text is lost.

The basic question is this: "Is John saying Jesus was making himself equal with God or were the jews saying Jesus was making himself equal with God?"

Otherwise, we may just have to let "the readers" decide - if there is anyone following this topic, it might be helpful to have other input. I'm not trying to convince anyone - just defending a position and seeking counter-arguments -- not just dogmatic assertions and re-assertions of the traditional view -- that's pretty clear -- but, reasoning out why my position is not the best view.

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Re: John 5:18 (was Jesus equating himself with the Father?)

Post by darinhouston » Fri May 07, 2021 10:40 am

Further note on this topic -- perhaps the most prevalent theme distinguishing John's Gospel from the Synoptics is the recurring pattern of the Jews and others "getting it wrong" in their exchanges with Jesus. This is unmistakable and should be kept in mind in any exegesis of these passages.

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