John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"

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darinhouston
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Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"

Post by darinhouston » Sat May 01, 2021 11:35 pm

By the same power the apostles did some of the same things.... the power of the Holy Spirit.

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Paidion
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Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"

Post by Paidion » Sun May 02, 2021 11:56 am

Dwight wrote:The above references show that eipen auto are addressed to the referent of the pronoun auto. This conclusively proves that Thomas’ confession was directed to Jesus, that John deliberately used the Greek words eipen auto in order to show that Thomas was directly addressing Jesus as his Lord and God.
Actually the Greek words for "My Lord and my God" prove that these words were NOT directed to Jesus.
Words directed to a person are in the vocative case. This is true in all cases where words WERE directed to Jesus.
However the words "Lord" and "God" are in the nominative case. This is the case which is used for the subject of a sentence.

Even though Thomas was talking to Jesus, perhaps he was beginning a sentence such as "My Lord and my God has raised you from the dead!" but for some reason didn't finish the sentence.

That he had begun such a sentence would explain Jesus's response: "Have you believed (that I have been raised) because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
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dwight92070
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Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"

Post by dwight92070 » Sun May 02, 2021 5:53 pm

Paidion wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 11:56 am
Dwight wrote:The above references show that eipen auto are addressed to the referent of the pronoun auto. This conclusively proves that Thomas’ confession was directed to Jesus, that John deliberately used the Greek words eipen auto in order to show that Thomas was directly addressing Jesus as his Lord and God.
Dwight - Paidon, that's not my quote, you must mean someone else.

Actually the Greek words for "My Lord and my God" prove that these words were NOT directed to Jesus.
Words directed to a person are in the vocative case. This is true in all cases where words WERE directed to Jesus.
However the words "Lord" and "God" are in the nominative case. This is the case which is used for the subject of a sentence.

Even though Thomas was talking to Jesus, perhaps he was beginning a sentence such as "My Lord and my God has raised you from the dead!" but for some reason didn't finish the sentence.

That he had begun such a sentence would explain Jesus's response: "Have you believed (that I have been raised) because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

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dwight92070
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Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"

Post by dwight92070 » Sun May 02, 2021 7:19 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 11:35 pm
By the same power the apostles did some of the same things.... the power of the Holy Spirit.
Dwight - Sorry, that answer doesn't explain it. "SOME of the SAME things?" Are you kidding me? Try TWO out of the TWENTY-SIX things that I listed, that we KNOW they did -POSSIBLY FOUR, but no more than that. Out of the 26 things that I mentioned, there was only about 4 that the apostles MIGHT have done: 1. Peter walked on water, but only because Jesus gave Him PERMISSION to, 2. They raised some from the dead - again, ONLY after petitioning God - Jesus SIMPLY COMMANDED THE DEAD TO RISE., 3. Opening blind eyes - No account given of the apostles doing this, but maybe - and 4. Opening deaf ears - Again, no account given, but they might have done this.

Dwight - The other 22 things? NO WAY, JOSE! ONLY GOD CAN DO THOSE THINGS! We have zero accounts of the apostles doing any of the other 22 things. Why? Because they were mere men. Even though they were filled with the Spirit, they couldn't do those things. If they could have, then they would have. Jesus can do ALL THINGS, just like God, because He was and is God. The apostles knew who He was, especially after 3 1/2 years, but most likely, long before that.

Dwight - John 5:18 - "For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, BUT ALSO WAS CALLING GOD HIS OWN FATHER, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD." So the Son of God is God.

Dwight - Whenever Jesus spoke of His Father, He was saying, among other things, that He was God! When the Father Himself said on more than one occasion, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.", He was acknowledging that His Son was God. No wonder that, in Hebrews, God refers to His own Son as "God".

Dwight - Did you catch what the apostle John is saying? Whenever Jesus is referred to as The Son of God, it means that He is EQUAL WITH GOD - That means HE IS GOD! From the time that Gabriel announced that the baby that would be conceived in Mary's womb "will be called the Son of the Most High to the time that Jesus prayed, "Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit.", Jesus was God. Of course, He was God before His birth and He was God after His death and He is God today.

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darinhouston
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Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"

Post by darinhouston » Sun May 02, 2021 9:44 pm

Dwight, do you think that simply saying all the same things over and over again in different combinations is persuasive?

Actually, ALL of the things you note (whether done by the Apostles or Jesus) can only be done by God or by His permission. Jesus did nothing that He wasn't granted to do by the Father and all was done not for his own glory but the glory of the Father. It was the Father that glorified Jesus after His life and death of obedience.

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Homer
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Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"

Post by Homer » Mon May 03, 2021 1:04 pm

Hi Paidioin,

You wrote:
Actually the Greek words for "My Lord and my God" prove that these words were NOT directed to Jesus.
Words directed to a person are in the vocative case. This is true in all cases where words WERE directed to Jesus.
However the words "Lord" and "God" are in the nominative case. This is the case which is used for the subject of a sentence.
A.T. Robertson, in his Word Pictures in the New Testament, Volume V, Page 316, comments on the Greek of John 20:28:
"Not exclamation, but address, the vocative case though the form of the nominative, a very common thing in the Koine. Thomas was wholly convinced and did not hesitate to address the risen Christ as Lord and God. And Jesus accepts the words and praises Thomas for doing so."

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Paidion
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Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"

Post by Paidion » Mon May 03, 2021 1:57 pm

If using the nominative case is so common in Greek for forms of address, how about exhibiting just one more instance of it from the New Testament?
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"

Post by Homer » Mon May 03, 2021 5:49 pm

How about two:

John 17:25 Righteous Father, even the world has not known you.

Mark 9:19 O unfaithful generation! How long will I be with you?

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dwight92070
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Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"

Post by dwight92070 » Mon May 03, 2021 9:08 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 9:44 pm
Dwight, do you think that simply saying all the same things over and over again in different combinations is persuasive?

Dwight - If you're referring to John 5:18, I have not made the point previously, concerning this verse, that I made here. Just because I use the same verse that I have used before, does not mean I am making the same point about it that I made previously. Did you even see this NEW point, or do you not care to even acknowledge it?

Actually, ALL of the things you note (whether done by the Apostles or Jesus) can only be done by God or by His permission. Jesus did nothing that He wasn't granted to do by the Father and all was done not for his own glory but the glory of the Father. It was the Father that glorified Jesus after His life and death of obedience.
Dwight - Here too, you simply ignore my point. Twenty-two out of the 26 things could never be done by the apostles. It takes God to do those things.

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Paidion
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Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"

Post by Paidion » Mon May 03, 2021 9:10 pm

Homer wrote:How about two:

John 17:25 Righteous Father, even the world has not known you.

Mark 9:19 O unfaithful generation! How long will I be with you?
Nope. In neither of these verses was anyone addresses in the nominative case. Rather the vocative case is employed as usual.
Indeed, as far as I know ONLY the vocative case is used in direct address.

John 17:25 πατερ (father vocative) δικαε (righteous vocative)

Mark 9:19 γενεα (generation vocative) απιστος (unfaithful vocative)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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