John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"

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Paidion
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Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"

Post by Paidion » Thu May 06, 2021 1:02 pm

Homer wrote:Also how are "Lord and "God" spelled, in Koine Greek, in nominative and vocative?
"Lord" in the nominative: κυριος (Matt 12:8)
"Lord" in the vocative: κυριε (Matt 15:25)

"God" in the nominative: θεος (Matt 15:4)
"God" in the vocative θεε (Matt 27:46)
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Homer
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Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"

Post by Homer » Thu May 06, 2021 4:09 pm

Paidion,

So in John 20:28 both "Lord" and "God" are in the nominative functioning as vocative.

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Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"

Post by dwight92070 » Thu May 06, 2021 8:13 pm

backwoodsman wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 12:06 am
dwight92070 wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 2:40 pm
Dwight - Paidon and Darin will given you and I names of "scholars" all day long, and expect us to believe them, but when you present scholars, they are prejudiced and therefore not worth even listening too. I think the best scholars are the authors of scripture, themselves.
Would that include the scholars who translated the English Bible you read? Or are you fluent in Biblical Greek, Hebrew & Aramaic so you can read the Bible as the authors wrote it without the aid of scholars?

Dwight - I think you may have misunderstood what I just said. Paidon just dismissed 5 scholars that Homer mentioned, and he basically claimed they were prejudiced against his point of view - and therefore not worth listening to.

It seems you haven't thought through your prejudice against scholars nearly as well as you think you have.

Dwight - I have nothing against scholars, unless they are arrogant and not willing to acknowledge a different point of view. Those .... yes, I do have a prejudice against them.

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Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"

Post by Paidion » Thu May 06, 2021 8:30 pm

Homer wrote:So in John 20:28 both "Lord" and "God" are in the nominative functioning as vocative.
I see no reason to suppose that there is only one verse in the entire New Testament in which the nominative is functioning as a vocative, except on the supposition that Thomas was addressing Jesus. I don't think he was doing that.

Because the words are nominative, I think Thomas was beginning a sentence with "My Lord and my God..." but he was so overwhelmed with the resurrection of Jesus, that he didn't finish the sentence. He may have been going to say:
"My Lord and my God has raised you from the dead!"
Paidion

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Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"

Post by Paidion » Thu May 06, 2021 8:44 pm

backwoodsman wrote:Dwight - I think you may have misunderstood what I just said. Paidon just dismissed 5 scholars that Homer mentioned, and he basically claimed they were prejudiced against his point of view - and therefore not worth listening to.
The 5 scholars are also human. They may have been prejudiced only because they wanted to believe that Thomas was addressing Jesus with the words "My Lord and my God."

Does it not make sense that the nominative would function as a nominative in this verse as it does in all other verses in which it occurs?
If Thomas were addressing Jesus, why did John not write these words in the vocative? What would be his reason to use the nominative instead of the vocative in one place and one place only in all of his gospel? And why would this not have been done anywhere else in the entire New Testament?
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"

Post by Homer » Fri May 07, 2021 11:38 am

Paidion,

You wrote:
Because the words are nominative, I think Thomas was beginning a sentence with "My Lord and my God..." but he was so overwhelmed with the resurrection of Jesus, that he didn't finish the sentence. He may have been going to say:
"My Lord and my God has raised you from the dead!"
Look at the context. It is clear that there is a back and forth between Jesus and Thomas:

John 20:27-28
New American Standard Bible
27. Then He said to Thomas, “Place your finger here, and see My hands; and take your hand and put it into My side; and do not continue in disbelief, but be a believer.” 28. Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

I have heard the "missing words" speculation before. The context rules that out.

You also wrote:
Does it not make sense that the nominative would function as a nominative in this verse as it does in all other verses in which it occurs?
If Thomas were addressing Jesus, why did John not write these words in the vocative? What would be his reason to use the nominative instead of the vocative in one place and one place only in all of his gospel? And why would this not have been done anywhere else in the entire New Testament?
You must have missed what I posted earlier:

Mark 15:34
New American Standard Bible
34. At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabaktanei?” which is translated, “My God (theos), My God (theos), why have You forsaken Me?”

Here Jesus addressed God in the nominative. By your own admission ' "God" in the nominative: θεος (Matt 15:4)' the spelling is nominative. And we have ho Theos mou exactly the same as in John 20:28!

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Paidion
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Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"

Post by Paidion » Fri May 07, 2021 5:52 pm

Yes, I did miss your post concerning Mark 15:38.
And yes, I concede that that appears to be a case of the nominative being used to address God.

However— again it could be an exclamation, "My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me?"
Paidion

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Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"

Post by Homer » Sat May 08, 2021 11:28 am

Just recently I read (Bill Mounce, I think) that every time God is addressed in the New Testament (one exception, Matthew 27:46) He is addressed in the nominative case.

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Paidion
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Re: John 20:28 - "my lord and my god"

Post by Paidion » Sun May 09, 2021 2:31 pm

I haven't found many cases of God being addressed.
However, I was not convinced that the nominative could be used in direct address. But now I am convinced. Here is what convinced me:

Matthew 27:46 (ESV) And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Mark 15:34 (ESV) And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"


Clearly Mark recorded the same incident as Matthew.
Yet Matthew wrote "My God, my God" in Greek as "θεε μου θεε μου" (vocative),
whereas Mark wrote "My God, my God" in Greek as "ο θεος μου ο θεος μου" (nominative).
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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