The Great "I Am"

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darinhouston
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The Great "I Am"

Post by darinhouston » Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:00 am

We've discussed this in other posts. But, did Jesus claim to be Yahweh, the great I AM of Exodus? Arguing so by use of such a common phrase as I am when succeeded by a noun having prophetic or normal context apart from the "I AM" seems conveniently contrived but is so often raised as an evidence of Jesus' claims to be God (notably The God and not a person of a Godhead) it deserves a separate topic.

Even if using the same words as Yahweh in Exodus, it is a weak proposition in my mind. But, as I understand it, it isn't even the same meaning in the Hebrew used in Exodus even though it is carelessly translated as "I am" in English. I understand the in the OT references is more like "I will be who I will be" (as in the unchangeable one). Or even "To Be" -- but not "I am".

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darinhouston
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Re: The Great "I Am"

Post by darinhouston » Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:04 am

I might also add that even the LXX which translates the Exodus passage with "ego eimi," proceeds to translate more fully into the full greek phrase "Ego Eimi ho on." That is, to properly focus not on the generic nature of the common use of I am which is used in common speech whenever you are equating identity between yourself or something else or to describe some aspect or characteristic of yourself - the use in Exodus seems to relate specifically to the most fundamental nature of the "be verb" - to be. The self-existing one, the one who just is, the one who is and ever shall be -- etc. Not in connection with anything else, but that from whom everything else derives or is generated. That notion is completely absent from Jesus' sayings and he is always using the term to describe himself in connection with something else. Even when used without the predicate "the" the phrase alone usually means "I am it" or "I am he" or more simply - yes, I'm the one you're talking about. Just as we all use the term -- are you the son of Frank? I am.

[brief excursion] The use of the "I am" passages in John does have a very interesting parallel which is best discussed in a different topic, however, and so much of what John could be doing in his gospel is lost in attempts to make it all about Jesus' divinity instead of his messianic identity and what may be his larger evangelical and apologetic polemical mission to hellenized jews, and gnostic christians and others influenced by platonic notions and hermetic traditions. It also explains why a number of sayings and events are missing in contrast with the synoptics and why it is so different from them. [please let's not get off track in this post, however. I'll post one on this topic later unless someone wants to do so]

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Paidion
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Re: The Great "I Am"

Post by Paidion » Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:10 pm

If that's the case, then why not simply "eimi" (I am). But "ego" means "I". So "ego eimi" emphasizes the "I"
So it means "I, I am" . So surely "ego eimi" refers to "The Great I Am".
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darinhouston
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Re: The Great "I Am"

Post by darinhouston » Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:45 pm

Paidion, I read somewhere that "ego eimi" is used together more than 300 times in the Bible. I haven't confirmed that, but if true that would seem to rebut that unless everyone using it is claiming to be the Great I Am.

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Re: The Great "I Am"

Post by darinhouston » Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:07 pm

Excerpt from an article by a trinitarian NT Languages professor at Biola on the subject.... It's not a controversial position - posted here mainly for some of the references to other common uses of the phrase, as Paidion has suggested it is clearly a reference to the Great I Am to have both ego and Emily. I have also read that it is a common emphatic form to use ego along with eimi. John the Baptist, for example, used ego eimi when saying in John 1:20 "I am not the Christ." This seems like an example of an emphatic use. I also read that it can imply things about missing predicates in some cases as well as other grammatical oddities I don't really understand.
Gary Manning Jr wrote:In the New Testament, ἐγώ εἰμι is used by Jesus, Judas (Matt 26:25), Gabriel (Luke 1:19), the blind man (John 9:9), Peter (Acts 10:21) and Paul (Acts 22:3, 26:29, Rom 11:13, 1 Tim 1:15), always to refer to themselves. This matches the use in Greek outside the NT. The Septuagint uses “I am” (ἐγώ εἰμι) in very normal ways. God uses the phrase often, but so does Jacob (Gen 27:32), Deborah (Jdg 5:3), Gideon (Jdg 6:15) and others. As I have searched through other works written in ancient Greek (Philo, the Pseudepigrapha, Plato and other philosophers), I have run across many such ordinary occurrences of ἐγώ εἰμι.

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Re: The Great "I Am"

Post by darinhouston » Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:57 pm

Paidion, in Acts 5:30, Peter clearly identifies the "God of their Fathers" (the Great I Am) as the one who raised Jesus. Doesn't this imply that Jesus was not the God of their Fathers?

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Re: The Great "I Am"

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:43 am

John 10:17-18 makes it clear that Jesus had authority to lay down His life and He had authority to take it again. So He raised Himself? That's what He's saying here, yet we know from many other scriptures like the one you just quoted that the Father raised Him. So if He raised Himself and the Father raised Him, then we see what Jesus said, "I and the Father are One".

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Re: The Great "I Am"

Post by darinhouston » Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:59 am

It also makes it clear where that authority comes from - the rest of the same verse says "this commandment have I received of my Father." It is also relevant that he is speaking in somewhat veiled terms that had to be clarified to the reader that he was even talking about his own life, and also that everywhere else it is quite clear and unqualified that it is the Father who raised him. So, it is either that his authority was derived from the Father or that he was talking about taking his life once it was given to him upon his resurrection. It's an unusual text for sure, but doesn't prove a lot unless you have strong preconceptions. It's at least worth mentioning that he says he'll take his life back in the same way he lays it down. As he didn't kill himself (though he says he laid it down) it's not clear that taking it again implies he was resurrecting himself by his own power. Virtually everywhere else he talks about his authority and power being derived from the Father and for the Father's glory.

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Re: The Great "I Am"

Post by Paidion » Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:26 pm

Thank you, Darin, for that quote from Gary Manning Jr.
I was not aware that "εγω ειμι" was used concerning all those people—apparently as an emphasis.
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Re: The Great "I Am"

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:03 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:59 am
It also makes it clear where that authority comes from - the rest of the same verse says "this commandment have I received of my Father." It is also relevant that he is speaking in somewhat veiled terms that had to be clarified to the reader that he was even talking about his own life, and also that everywhere else it is quite clear and unqualified that it is the Father who raised him. So, it is either that his authority was derived from the Father or that he was talking about taking his life once it was given to him upon his resurrection. It's an unusual text for sure, but doesn't prove a lot unless you have strong preconceptions. It's at least worth mentioning that he says he'll take his life back in the same way he lays it down. As he didn't kill himself (though he says he laid it down) it's not clear that taking it again implies he was resurrecting himself by his own power. Virtually everywhere else he talks about his authority and power being derived from the Father and for the Father's glory.
Dwight - Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in 3 days I will raise it up." John 2:19 Wait, I thought the Father raised Him up. He says here that He will raise Himself up. Which is it? Both, because He is in the Father and the Father is in Him.

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